The Allure of Hyena Energy and Weaponized Humor

Episode Transcript

Liz Moorehead (00:42.51)
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your host, Liz Moorhead. And as always, I'm joined by the one, the only, the man, the myth, the legend, George B. Thomas. It has been a while since we have been on this mic. How are you?

George B. Thomas (00:56.175)
Yes, I'm doing great. It has been a hot minute. I'm back in the saddle. I'm glad we're in the saddle and I'm ready to go for this adventurous ride on today's topic because I think it's going to get interesting to say the least.

Liz Moorehead (01:16.046)
yes, I think it's going to get extremely interesting. But before we do that, obviously, we start our show every single week the same way. We talk about our highlights and our lowlights. George, what are your highlights and lowlights?

George B. Thomas (01:30.159)
Okay, so low lights is gonna be tough to be honest with you, but I'll think about that one. Highlights are very easy for me. I've been out of the hospital for three weeks, I think. I think it's been three weeks. And I have lost 21 pounds. So maybe more. We'll see, I'll weigh myself tomorrow. But here's the funny thing is I...

Liz Moorehead (01:43.917)
Mm -hmm.

George B. Thomas (01:59.311)
It hasn't been because I started walking because people are going to ask. It's literally just because I started eating differently, drinking differently and, you know, no breads, no sugars, no processed meats, like just more greens, beans and nuts, if you will. Like I love me like instead of a bowl of chips. Now it's like some cashews and pistachio nuts. Like when I'm sitting down watching.

You know, maybe I'm binge watching Sweet Tooth on Netflix or something like that. Hey, let's get a little bowl of nuts and let's go for it. So it's been real interesting to watch my body do this naturally based off of like what I'm putting into it. And this morning I was literally sitting here like, okay, now that I've dropped that, maybe it's time to actually start doing the walks because the walks plus what's happening with my body naturally.

is real interesting to me. And again, the goal for me, by the way, is not to lose weight. I just happen to be losing weight. The goal is to eat and drink things that don't cause inflammation and pain in my body. So that's the large goal. This is a side benefit that is a highlight. Low light.

George B. Thomas (03:20.079)
I've kind of been struggling. I haven't vocalized this to anybody and I'm about to do it on a damn podcast. I'm kind of struggling with the business a little bit as far as like how much we do, how much we should do, who should be doing what, if some people should even be doing like there's a whole bunch of stuff circling around my brain for probably the last

week and a half. What's really weird about that is it's because I've actually, me purposely slowed down, which is giving my brain the space to think about these things. And while I say it's struggling and I say it's a low light, it's only because it's not my default state and I don't naturally like to be there, but.

It is things that as a business owner, my brain should be thinking about. So it's kind of a low light highlight. Did I just cheat? I don't know. Liz, what about you as far as low light highlights?

Liz Moorehead (04:27.308)
First of all, this isn't our only podcast, Rodeo George. You break my rules constantly on both this podcast and the other podcast, and I deeply respect it. You know, as a fellow, you know, as a fellow little anarchist in my own happy ways, I deeply respect that. So I get it. I think it's fascinating, though, that, you know, you are achieving a goal by not setting out to seek that specific goal with weight loss. And I had a similar thing. So I'm down now about.

George B. Thomas (04:34.03)
Good at that.

George B. Thomas (04:51.503)
Yep. Yep.

Liz Moorehead (04:54.923)
I mean, you've been watching me, the incredible Shrinking Liz. I'm about like 50, 60 pounds down now since October. And you know what I did? I stopped trying to lose weight. I just stopped. I just started saying like, I just know I need to move my body and I need to stop eating like crap. And that's all I do. I don't weigh myself. I don't do any of those types of things. I just stopped. Just stopped. And what I find fascinating about what you mentioned about your low light, I can...

George B. Thomas (04:59.151)
It's amazing.

George B. Thomas (05:11.599)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (05:19.695)
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Moorehead (05:23.531)
understand you're now giving yourself a moment to integrate. You are at this, I think you've been given the gift of an inflection point where it's like well before we keep, you know, we could keep growing. You could keep growing, you could keep going as fast as possible. But it's almost like a gift of, okay so before we go, level up one more. Are we leveling up in the right way? Do we have the right people in the right seats doing the right things?

George B. Thomas (05:37.551)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (05:51.018)
But I can understand why it is a low light because then it makes you go, crap, hold on. Is the call coming from inside the house? Are all the calls coming from inside the house?

George B. Thomas (05:51.375)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (05:56.391)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (06:00.783)
Yeah, and it's crazy. It's crazy because again, I should probably get kicked out of the like business owner club if there was such a thing. But I mean, even to the point where I have three leads who are pretty ready just to like sign on the dotted line and us help them. And as a business owner, I'm sitting there going, but do I want to?

So like, do we want to do that? Like it's more income. And there's so many business owners out there that are struggling to like find the next lead and close the next deal. And we're literally at a point where like, I can do that, but it will equal this other like level or I cannot do that. And we can just kind of stay where we're at for right now because maybe that's what we need to do or maybe it's not. Anyway, that's not why we're here today. But again, that's all in the brain.

Liz Moorehead (06:28.073)
And that's okay.

Liz Moorehead (06:56.457)
No!

George B. Thomas (06:56.527)
of like trying to figure out how to, you know, living a life beyond your default and being a business owner can sometimes become a very complex matrix of should I, could I, would I scenarios. And man, my brain just likes to like get lost in the woods of those things.

Liz Moorehead (07:23.606)
man, I love that. So my highlight, let's see.

I wish I could say my highlight is man, this weather is so beautiful, but you know, I am a fall and winter girly, so I'm sitting here going, yay, sunshine. We love this for us, this is great. But what I, I will say, having lived in New England, I didn't know in New England because it's further from the equator, the sun in the winter sets earlier. So down here, it'll still, even in the winter, like it's like five o 'clock or so, and that really sucks. Up there, it's like four o 'clock.

George B. Thomas (07:41.391)
I do like some sun.

Liz Moorehead (07:58.058)
in the wintertime, which is brutal. Like that is, that is a level of really, God, no wonder you're so angry up there. But.

George B. Thomas (08:00.527)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (08:05.423)
In Ohio, we hated it. When we lived in Ohio versus North Carolina, we're like, OK, it's 4 15 and it's midnight out.

Liz Moorehead (08:13.545)
Yeah, but what I will say that is a positive out of it, and this is why it is my highlight, not just me complaining about sunshine, is I have been able to get out more and just really enjoy walking around town. I live in a really cool spot in historic downtown Annapolis. And, you know, once a week on the weekends, there's always like a big brass band playing outside or or stuff like that going on. Like, there's just this really cool community feeling that this town really comes alive around this time of year after everyone's been trapped.

inside for months, right? But that I would say is my highlight is just really walking around with completely unhurried energy. I don't feel frantic like I did last year. I feel very much like, hey, life is gonna surprise me. I wrote about this in our newsletter a few weeks ago, beyondyourdefault .com forward slash newsletter comes out once a week. And I would go subscribe.

George B. Thomas (08:54.863)
Mmm.

George B. Thomas (09:10.863)
Go subscribe, ladies and gentlemen.

Liz Moorehead (09:12.905)
Yeah, I wrote about how five -year plans suck and how I really don't like them because whenever I develop them, they're completely wrong. So the recent commitment I had made to myself is to embrace a mindset of curiosity instead of constantly trying to clench my hands around life and shape it to exactly what I want it to be. That I was just going to allow it to myself to be curious at all times. And I've been really focusing on that recently as part of my highlight. And because of that, I've just had some really interesting adventures. I had

dinner with random friends who I ran into because I decided to just go walk around and see where I am. I've experienced new music, new art, new different things, and it's just been really fun. Now my low light has been a weird thing. I cannot get my sleep schedule straight.

George B. Thomas (09:55.279)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (10:02.665)
I don't know what it is for what I had strep for about a week or so a couple of weeks ago, which was, you know, zero out of five stars. That is my Yelp review. Do not recommend lots of notes. Hated it. Hated every moment of it. I'd never had it before, but I learned, you know, when you have your don't have your tonsils out, apparently that makes you more prone to it. But yeah, I didn't know that. They're like, it's not a direct cause, but it can make you more prone to getting it, especially when you're older. But.

George B. Thomas (10:13.135)
Yeah. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (10:22.959)
Liz Moorehead (10:32.681)
It's just been strange. As more connected and mentally dialed in, I feel physically something's out of whack. I'll find myself with nights where I'm just staying up really late with my brain going, but it's not anxiety that's keeping it up, keeping me up like it used to be. It's something else. Or I'll just wake up once an hour every hour. It just, something's up with my sleep.

George B. Thomas (10:41.807)
Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (10:58.472)
And so it's creating this weird, I know I'm not the only person who feels this way sometimes, but it's creating this weird kind of loop where it's like, if my sleep schedule's off, even if I get an appropriate amount of sleep, even if it's not just Liz didn't sleep, it will suddenly make me feel more removed from my communities, from my people, from my work, because I'm not quite dialed in. All of my rhythms are off. So there's this weird cascading effect where just,

All of my rhythms for about two and a half weeks have just been off. And that, you know, anyway, so that's where I'm at.

George B. Thomas (11:30.831)
Yeah, I'll tell you one thing I don't have a problem with Liz and that is sleep like I I can my wife gets so angry because I can sleep anywhere like we'll be somewhere and I'll just be I'll prop against the wall I'm out here's the funny thing though, and and I'm gonna say this for the listeners, but I'm also saying this for you my sleep

Liz Moorehead (11:40.103)
my god, I'm so jealous.

Liz Moorehead (11:47.529)
Peace.

George B. Thomas (11:57.775)
and the ability to sleep through the night. And when I wake up feeling refreshed, dramatically changed when I quit being bullheaded. And I think it was about six months ago, maybe seven at this point, I went ahead, doctor's orders, and I did a CPAP, which everybody that I talked to, usually they kind of freak out of like,

no, I couldn't have something on my face or blah, blah. Insert like excuse for the human. Just insert any excuse there. I did this too. I did this too. But once I, and it took about three days, three days, four days, got used to it. And now I'm like, I'm probably their best advocate. I should become a CPAP salesman.

Liz Moorehead (12:34.247)
We always have a thousand excuses not to help our health.

Liz Moorehead (12:48.71)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (12:50.767)
Cause I was literally talking to my dad when I went to Ohio for a funeral and was visiting with and my mom let it slip like, yeah, he's got sleep apnea. And I'm like, dude, dude, you gotta get your sleep app. And he's like, mm. Like you could immediately tell he was like, dude, shut up before I kill you and take you out of the will because your mom is just gonna ride my butt the entire time after you leave. And so like I shut it down, but.

Anybody who has this cycle or they wake up and don't feel refreshed, hey, it's just a doctor's visit and see, get tested. Like maybe you have sleep apnea, maybe it's waking you up, which by the way, like large weight changes and things like that will just because your body's used to, yeah, your body's used to be in a certain way and now all of a sudden your body's changing. And so like be like, hey,

Liz Moorehead (13:37.894)
I never even thought of that.

George B. Thomas (13:45.711)
This happened and now I'm doing this. Can you please like tell me what your thoughts are and like actually get some damn medical advice? I'm done saying that to you, but to you and to the listeners. And this is coming from a guy who usually is like, I hate doctors. I hate hospitals. But the older I get, I'm like, just get some advice. That's what they're there for. Anyway, again, not what we're here to talk about, but very important stuff.

Liz Moorehead (13:55.813)
It's to me, it's fine.

Liz Moorehead (14:10.054)
No, but OK, I actually think this is really tied pretty deeply into what we're talking about today, because the whole thrust of today's conversation is, and this is a bit of a different episode in terms of where we sourced it. But this idea, the question we're going to be asking ourselves today is, what would happen if you took your goals seriously? And this, I think, is wrapped up in it, because, well, you know what? We'll get to that.

George B. Thomas (14:29.199)
Mm.

Liz Moorehead (14:39.173)
I want to first talk about where this came from. And what's funny is I got this for you as well, George. And I don't know if you've interacted with it. I don't even know if you've picked it up. But a friend of mine two years ago as a gift gave me a box of cards. Yeah. Animal Spirit Cards by Kim Kranz. And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And I don't understand. She's like, it's fun. You can pull cards. You can read stuff. You could just see what it is. And I'm like, OK, that's fine. And I had them put away for a really long time.

really long time. And then as I was moving around recently, I reopened it up. I'm like, huh, I forgot about this. And they're pretty neat. You know, they have little animals like lion, crow, tiger, da da da da da. And I don't subscribe to a particular belief system around stuff like this. I think of it more as like kind of like a subconscious little psychology thing. Like you pick one, you pull from it, you see how you feel about it. But then something weird started happening.

George B. Thomas (15:23.919)
Hey, there we go. I'm just saying like.

Liz Moorehead (15:38.406)
And wouldn't you know it George, as if on cue, guess what popped out?

Ha ha!

George B. Thomas (15:53.551)
There it is. Which by the way, if you're listening this, you're like, what? What just popped out? I can't see the screen. So a card that we're about to talk about popped out, just came flying out.

Liz Moorehead (15:54.022)
So George, you had a saying for me, because you were the one.

Liz Moorehead (16:00.518)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (16:07.047)
came flying out, just came flying out. And George, what's funny is I was originally not considering this something we should talk about, but you said, if it happens once, fine. If it happens twice, coincidence. If it happens three times, somebody's trying to tell me something.

George B. Thomas (16:25.263)
but he's knocking on your mental doorway, I'm just saying.

Liz Moorehead (16:29.158)
And this card has been stalking me for about two months. I had in one week, this card, I would shuffle it. I would throw it against a wall. I could like shake it in a bucket. And this one card would come out and it is the hyena card. And I read it to you. And as soon as we read it, we're like, shit, we have to talk about this.

George B. Thomas (16:47.791)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (16:51.727)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (16:53.48)
The hyena personality is a jokester and a crowd pleaser, but below the surface, there are unfulfilled dreams to be realized. When the hyena card appears, it is time to reflect on your reliance on sarcasm and humor to express your truth. Ouch. Are you using jokes to hide old resentments in relationships or to mask things that you feel uncomfortable discussing? What would happen if you took your goals seriously?

George B. Thomas (17:09.615)
Mm.

George B. Thomas (17:14.095)
Hee hee.

Liz Moorehead (17:25.062)
So George, I want to turn to you for a second and ask you this. When I shared this, I'll admit, I was a little bit nervous. I was a little bit nervous to come to you and be like, so I got these cards and this one card has been stalking me and I'm having feelings about, like, that's a weird thing for me to say. Like that felt like a weird thing for me to say. But you had a very excited, emotional reaction about this conversation. And I want to know why.

George B. Thomas (17:25.199)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (17:44.975)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (17:52.207)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (17:53.605)
What is it about either this story or this subject that really excites you and makes it important?

George B. Thomas (17:58.991)
Yeah, after I got past my, is that damn one of them carrot cards? No, I'm just kidding. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. But see how funny that was though, because we're talking about humor. Anyway, it's not like one of the, you know, it's not one of them cards, not like voodoo. Like, listen, first of all, if you've paid attention to this podcast, you realize I historically suck at journaling.

Liz Moorehead (18:05.541)
I did. I did.

Liz Moorehead (18:11.75)
I get it. I see it. I see it.

George B. Thomas (18:27.407)
And so immediately this idea, and I love this idea of randomly picking a card, which leads to an internal journey of who we are and possibly how we interact with the world and using that as a catalyst to do some type of actual like daily journaling. Like just fundamentally that excites me. But again, Liz gave you some context to like, we were going over this card. We're having this conversation.

Liz Moorehead (18:36.229)
Mm -hmm.

George B. Thomas (18:57.103)
But a side portion of this that Liz, you didn't know is that I've always been kind of...

Well, I just, I've been in like, I don't know if I want to say entuned, entrenched, enticed. I don't know the word I'm looking for, but of this idea of spirit animals. And like, so knowing that there was this deck and knowing that you were talking about hyena and knowing that it was like these unknown spirit animals and it was alluding to this kind of nature.

and religion and spiritual and you could kind of take it how you wanted it. Like I was just like, Liz, I need one of them there decks, which of course you then gifted me a pack of the deck and the book that comes with it, which by the way, like Liz, I literally have earmarked the hyena in the book because I was like reading it and going through it for this episode.

But here's the thing, I've always been fascinated with the idea of spirit animals. And for Indian cultures, like this concept is huge, like huge. And heck, Marcus Sheridan, which was a boss that I had at a historical company I worked for called The Sales Lion, because he alluded to that the lion was his spirit animal, like a thing that he thought about, dreamt about.

I've always been more of like a curious George monkey, spirit animal to be honest with you, like, you know.

Liz Moorehead (20:39.812)
My company is named after an animal, so my company is named Buonavope, but that means good fox. And the whole thesis behind good fox is when you are clever and cunning and intelligent, it is a choice to be a good fox. That's why I named it. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (20:54.319)
Yeah, I love it. I love it. So for me, you know, curious George the monkey or I've been really in tuned with like the horse. I mean, I used to be a horse trainer. I grew up in Montana. But so like the horse was very close or instrumental in my life until the day that we had our conversation and I had never really thought about like, wow, is the hyena my spirit animal? Like, is this really who I am and like who I.

kind of correlate to, because I've always, listen, I got told I would amount to nothing at 17 and a half in the middle of a math, I've told this story on the podcast because I was being a class clown. I was being a hyena. I was joking around, like I was having fun. And so like natively, even at a younger age, like this is who I was and how I've kind of programmed to be. And...

and I'm really good at just kind of being funny in the moment.

which is a good thing and a bad thing, we'll get into that sometimes depending on how or what you're wielding with that humor. But regarding the hyena card, I felt a direct correlation or I might even say like a deep connection with the words that you read that day and Liz that you just read a second ago. So the card, so people don't have to rewind, the card starts out the hyena.

represents a jokester and crowd pleaser. I get paid to speak on stage in front of crowds so that they have fun and get educated. I'm literally on a podcast mic right now for who knows how large of audience so that they can enjoy and educate around life. Like, I just want to say, have you met me? Like, when I...

Liz Moorehead (22:34.532)
Yup.

Mm -hmm.

George B. Thomas (22:55.439)
That whole first line, jokester and crowd pleaser. Like, again, this is my default state in good ways that I'm trying to amplify. And I also understand in bad ways that I'm trying to fix along the way. But the card goes on to say, below the surface, there are dreams to be realized. Sometimes the hyena so busy joking around and pleasing people.

they don't get down to the root of what they want to do with life. And Liz, this is where I literally go back and say the first 25 to 30 years of my life may have been wasted. While there was life lessons along the way, it was very surface level. And still I started to dig down and started to realize these dreams, right? Really like 2010, 2012,

is when like things really started to take shape and kind of change. Before that, the pre George B. Thomas and just the George Thomas is a whole thing. But I've been working hard for sure for at least the last two to three years to realize all my dreams. I mean, listen, that's why I've started a business. That's why we created the Beyond Your Default podcast.

That's why we'll launch the Beyond Your Default book, course, heck, who knows what else. The family and I are moving in about a year and we'll be first time homeowners at 53 years old. And we have very specific things that we're looking for or dare I say dreaming about when we purchase our first time and what we're calling our forever home. Like.

My wife and I at 53 were buying and we don't plan on moving. So there is a laundry list of we dream about having this. My dreams, our family dreams are not only being realized, Liz and listeners, but I would say we're freaking mapping them out with purpose, which again, historically, you know, history, George, it was not that deep. It was not that mapped out.

George B. Thomas (25:17.423)
The card goes on to say, are you using jokes to hide old resentments in relationships?

Listen, I don't know about you, only you can answer for you, but I've joked my way through and past a lot of historical pain. And to be honest, I think that it wasn't until we started this podcast and created this podcast that I have gone back through my life and started to unpack some of the ish that I joked away along the journey. Moments have

really been looked at, dissected, and worked through in my life over the last, how many episodes have we done of this, right? Like over the last 40 episodes, there's been a lot of like Dr. George to George, like growth and tweaking and changing. And so the card then goes on to state, whoa.

Liz Moorehead (26:09.378)
This is our 40th. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (26:26.287)
What would happen if you took your goals seriously? I am. I am taking my goals seriously. And it's changing my life and the lives of those around me. And I would ask the listeners to ask yourself that question and get to the point where you're able to just say, I am. Right now, I'm finding it both, the fact that I can say I am,

And the fact that it is changing my life and people's lives around me, I find it both challenging and exhilarating at the same time, to be honest. Like, again, everything is almost like a little bit of a double -edged sword or like the positive and the negative, the yin and the yang to it. But that's why I found it exciting and what has led us to talk about humor as a weapon or as a shield in our life. This little freaking card.

This hyena card was the catalyst for this entire conversation today.

Liz Moorehead (27:30.305)
love that. And I love that you mentioned the journaling practice because I did fail to mention that one of the things that I do is that whenever I read a card, I have 30 minutes each day, and I have to sit down and write about what the card brings up. What is hilarious about this is that, haha, hilarious, not funny, not funny, is that I have now had to write about this same question three times over the past month, and I now have to do it again, today.

George B. Thomas (27:50.031)
Hee hee.

George B. Thomas (28:00.399)
but does it change each time? That's...

Liz Moorehead (28:02.53)
That's what I want to talk about. So what I find fascinating about this is that when I first read this, I had a very big reaction to it because it made me confront the fact that, and I've talked about my people pleasing tendencies on this podcast before, I've talked about where they come from. And to pat myself on the back, I'm an intelligent, quick -witted person. I also do public speaking. I also do podcasting. And I'm a writer. Like,

and part of my voice and tone is authentic, but there's a lot of humor involved in that. But one of the things that it really started forcing me to confront is this little shadow part of myself that says, Liz, let's go a question deeper. Do you want to be entertaining and loved or do you want to be effective?

George B. Thomas (28:36.591)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (28:53.327)
OOOOH!

Liz Moorehead (28:55.168)
And that when I got, because usually what I do, like so for example, to go back to our newsletter for a second, two weeks ago I did an issue on risk that was inspired by a friend of mine asking me, why does it feel so hard to take risks? And I'm like, well, wait a minute. That's not, is that the question? Because I started peeling back the layers, right? I'm like, well, wait a minute. Sometimes I'm fine with taking a risk. I could have two risks of equal weight and equal potential for failure at an equal amount.

and I will run after one with more ease than the other. Why? And it's because I know I fricking want it. Because I took the time to sit down and say, I want this, this fuels me, this is what I need, this is what I want. So the first time I sat with this question, I felt like I had a body, a physical reaction to it. And I started saying, well, what is it about the question? And it's because what the question was forcing me to ask, which was, do you want to be entertaining?

George B. Thomas (29:35.311)
Mm.

Liz Moorehead (29:52.159)
or do you want to be effective? Do you even know what your goals are? And that's when you start getting into really potentially scary spaces. Because you know how it is, George. We are trained through our work and our professions to respond, to be ready, to talk, to know things, to be knowledgeable, to be here, to be guides to other people.

George B. Thomas (29:58.447)
Mm.

George B. Thomas (30:12.879)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (30:20.303)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (30:21.215)
And it could create feelings of fraudulence if your guides to other people and you're like, I guess I'm just trying to figure this out. You know, I'm just vibing. Like, what are my goals? Now, what I find fascinating about this practice too, is that I have to answer this again today. And we like to be radically honest with our listeners. This is the third time we have tried to record this episode. The first two times they were, stuff happened, but.

George B. Thomas (30:39.663)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (30:43.247)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (30:46.639)
Stuff happened.

Liz Moorehead (30:49.406)
I always have a problem with, and I talked to you about this this morning, I always have a problem with even if each instance is reasonable, once we get to a third time, there is a problem. And that problem was this morning. I can't tell you why I wasn't awake for the original time. Could not tell you. But we need to have a conversation today about Liz, you know what your goals are. You're working through the fact that you are really embracing being effective, dialed in rather than entertaining.

George B. Thomas (30:57.839)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (31:18.398)
and liked because that is a wound you're working through. So what would happen if you took your goal seriously? I now for a fourth time have to come back and answer this question again for 30 minutes. And I'm very excited to see what comes out because I love opportunities like this to challenge ourselves with really hard questions because if you can really push yourself through these difficult moments, whether you're asking yourself this question for the first time,

or this is something like, this is something you need to work through. If you allow yourself to be uncomfortable and honest, you can get to some really, really interesting places. And I'll definitely share with you what I end up coming to later on when I do this later today, because yeah, cause like, yeah, go ahead.

George B. Thomas (32:00.623)
Yeah, because I am curious. Let me explain why. I'm curious because I know, by the way, pay attention to things. I know that historically you have been struggling with building a brand inside of Beyond Your Default and what the universe is asking you to become and how to show up.

Liz Moorehead (32:14.021)
yeah.

George B. Thomas (32:30.319)
And literally when this thing skipped the first time, I was like, hmm. And then it skipped the second time and I was like, hmm, okay. Like is the universe, cause again, I have a real weird set of like, the universe sometimes maybe doesn't want us to open certain doors.

Liz Moorehead (32:42.397)
Uhhh...

George B. Thomas (32:55.503)
doesn't want us to see certain things, doesn't want us to hear or let others hear certain things. I said, this is interesting, maybe it's coincidence, whatever. And then the third time it happened this morning, first of all, I got frustrated as I'll get out. A little at you, a little at the universe, a little at myself. And I was like, why am I frustrated? Literally walked out and talked to my wife. I'm like, man, I'm frustrated. I'm just trying to clear my head right now.

Liz Moorehead (33:00.124)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (33:06.204)
No.

Liz Moorehead (33:10.844)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (33:22.364)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (33:22.703)
But then when I started to think about it, I was like, okay, doesn't matter when, as soon as I have a conversation with Liz, I'm just resetting the time and we're doing this and screw the universe. Because I had to ask myself these, here's the questions that I asked myself. Is the universe doing this or is Liz subconsciously doing this because of...

the fact that this is a large stepping stone into her understanding goals around who she is to be, can be, and will be in the future based off of this like very pivotal piece, humor, and what it does or does not do to goals as she moves forward. I don't have the answer to that, but that's why I say, Liz, I'm very interested in knowing when you write it today, what ends up happening.

Other than your mic falling, but...

Liz Moorehead (34:20.668)
Yeah, other than me throwing my mic down, which is super fun, you know, that's what what would happen if I took my goal seriously violence, chaos, destruction. No, I remember I woke up this morning and I you know what, Seth, you can bleep me. I don't care. I was like, what the actual fuck? And I had a moment where I sat there and I'm just like, I had the same moment. I'm frustrated with myself. I'm frustrated with whatever is happening because I'm like.

George B. Thomas (34:28.335)
Yeah. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (34:39.631)
Beep!

George B. Thomas (34:46.223)
Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (34:49.372)
You and I record multiple podcasts. This is an anomaly to miss the same episode three times. This is unheard of. It is. And I had to force myself to say, what is this moment trying to show me? It's like, well, first you're going to pick up the phone and you're going to call George immediately and own this because this is insanity. But then the other piece of it is exactly what we're talking about. These seemingly innocuous questions are here to teach us something.

George B. Thomas (34:53.711)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (35:17.725)
And I guarantee you, I have a big block around this, what I'm stepping into. Because what I've been feeling recently is that, so we are part of an entrepreneur's group called Evolve. And we each meet with, we have a group that we meet with and we have individual coaches. And I remember now that I'm thinking about it, George, yesterday, Tim was, and I were talking about my writing and how in the newsletter,

George B. Thomas (35:24.047)
push through it.

Liz Moorehead (35:45.276)
particularly in the past three weeks, something has shifted. I've gotten much more dialed in. I've gotten much more direct. Like there is a level of flow that is occurring. And if I'm being honest with myself, I felt 98 % great. And now that I'm reflecting on that conversation, there is a 2 % of me that was terrified.

George B. Thomas (36:07.183)
Yeah. And see, I've looked at the last couple of newsletters and I'm, I'll give you my perspective. I was like, finally, finally she's taking no prisoners. She's just, she's setting them up and knocking them down. I'm like, now, like if people don't like this, they don't need to read it, but the people who like this are gonna fricking change.

Liz Moorehead (36:21.532)
Really?

George B. Thomas (36:33.935)
They're going to look at themselves. They're going to listen to the stories as they're reading it. And it's going to be a catalyst point. So, yeah, I have loved the direction of the last couple of newsletters and have fearfully thought about not or sharing that with you in the worries that it would change the outcome of the newsletters moving forward, because I was like, I'll just let her be on her course and do what she's doing. But,

Yeah, the newsletter strategy of take no prisoners is I'm like, yes, like, let's do it, especially for what we're doing here with this podcast, with this community. Listen, if you're trying to grow, then this newsletter in the way that it has the last couple of weeks is going to help you do that.

Liz Moorehead (37:21.052)
shameless plug beyondyourdefault .com forward slash newsletter. This wasn't intentionally going to be focused around the newsletter, but that means a lot. And I'm glad you shared that with me because I'm like, George has thoughts because he's being uncharacteristically quiet. I usually at least get a, hey, but I had a friend this morning text me. I'll send you the text later, George. She's like, whoo, yesterday's issue that hurt. And I said, why? And she wrote my relationship and went,

George B. Thomas (37:38.223)
Hmm.

George B. Thomas (37:44.495)
Yeah, I literally hit the reply because I was in the hotel room because we took Noah and the family to Cherokee Resort and Casino for his 21st birthday. I was in the hotel room, had a hit reply on the newsletter that you wrote just recently and literally was like, nope.

Liz Moorehead (38:03.132)
about endings? Yeah.

George B. Thomas (38:04.431)
Nope, I'm just gonna you know, I'm just gonna let it but I was I was so close to hitting reply and saying something I was like, nope, I'm just gonna let it be it's it's I'm gonna let it be but it's so so good. So good.

Liz Moorehead (38:17.114)
Well, but this is where we get into something very interesting that starts happening. Because one of the places that I felt uncomfortable, and this leads me into my next question, George, for you, is that one of the things I've done is I've become less reliant on humor. Humor still shows up. There's very loud all caps Applebee's reference in this past week's issue. But I've become, I don't know, my relationship with humor is changing because I think my relationship with humor in general,

is that humor is a symptom of a deeper wound.

George B. Thomas (38:50.447)
Ooh, we'll talk about that. Here's, here's, and so we can get into that question, but here's the thing that I, for some reason, my brain is wanting to like shout this right now with what you just said. And I usually say this like with design principles, right? I'm like, hey, design is supposed to be the salt and pepper. It's not supposed to be the sandwich. Like it's not the meal. It's what makes the meal taste good. Humor.

Liz Moorehead (38:52.122)
And I wanna talk to you about that, yeah.

Liz Moorehead (39:09.338)
Mm -hmm.

George B. Thomas (39:20.431)
If is the whole meal, aka some of our historical newsletters, fine, it's great, it's a meal, but it might not be healthy. Versus if humor is the salt and pepper inside the meal, the steak, something that really fills you up, something that really gives you the power to move forward. Now, the humor being the salt and pepper or the condiment, depending on what you like analogy -wise, now we're heading in the right direction.

So you do still have, in by the way, the last two to three that you've written, salt and pepper humor, but mostly steak.

Liz Moorehead (39:57.946)
Well, OK, now I want to get off the hot seat for a little bit because there's a lot of talking about my feelings. So I want to hear from you. How has your relationship with humor been throughout your life? How has it been a shield for you? I know you've already started touching on this, but let's go deeper.

George B. Thomas (40:01.263)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (40:12.111)
Yeah, well, I think, and again, we have our own perception and then other people have their perception of us. But I think for me, humor has always been a shield for me. Always been a shield for me. But when I say that, don't get me wrong, like there's a ton of times that I'm simply funny in the moment because that's how I'm built. Like,

I'll just say some random ish in a podcast or random stuff on stage or out with friends and not even really mean to be funny, but it's just people like, dude, you're hilarious. Maybe I missed my calling on being a comedian. I don't know, but like. There are many times where my humor is to put somebody at arm's length.

I like to have fun. I like to laugh. I feel good when others around me are laughing and having fun, Liz. Like, natively, that feeds or fuels me. But I do realize, like most comedians that are out there, and if you've seen interviews, the humor comes from dark places. That, as humans, we get really good at hiding.

because they're about 37 layers under the last joke we just told.

Liz Moorehead (41:40.794)
It's like I saw a webcomic about this recently. It's like, you're so funny. And the girl goes, thanks, trauma. It's just, yeah. -huh.

George B. Thomas (41:46.255)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. And the funny thing, if you asked me, because you know, has it ever been a shield? I said always. But I also want to add sometimes for me, because it, by the way,

A shield is to protect us, which is why I literally use the Keep People at Arms length reference to protect myself. I am funny, humorous, but I would also say sometimes my humor has been a sword.

Not so much anymore, but when I was younger and I'll say dumber in life I would use humor to take others out Like just take them down And that was just wrong and now something that I am always watching out for and keeping the that that old George that portion of old George at bay When it comes to that kind of sword style humor so like

I want the listeners to think about like in your life, have you used humor as a shield? Have you used humor as a sword? What part does humor play in your past, your present, and the way that you present to yourself that you can actually become or do with or without that humor? Liz, let's put you back on the hot seat. What are your thoughts to this question?

Liz Moorehead (43:19.193)
Hehehe!

Liz Moorehead (43:25.913)
It's so funny.

George B. Thomas (43:26.735)
Damn, that's the longest pause I think we've ever had in Beyond Your Default history. Seth, do not edit that out. Now I'll be quiet and Liz, you can go ahead and go.

Liz Moorehead (43:38.009)
I would have answered this question entirely differently had we record this when we were supposed to the first time and the second time. I would have recorded this an entirely different way. So let's be honest. What is my relationship with humor? My relationship with humor for a really long time was the way I would find love and liking.

Liz Moorehead (44:04.504)
I really have struggled for a long time in my life to feel a sense of connection with people. And a lot of that is circumstantial. I'm an only child and both of my parents were only children. So I grew up with no aunts, uncles or cousins. They also had me when they were much older. My mother was reproductively challenged and I was a miracle baby who showed up when they were 40. So a lot of my extended family passed away relatively young.

George B. Thomas (44:16.911)
You

Liz Moorehead (44:35.096)
And then I moved out on my own when I was 19 years old. And I really never felt the family connectedness that a lot of people feel. I grew up in an abusive household and I don't share these things to garner pity. I love my path and I wouldn't change anything about it. It's why I get to be sitting here having these conversations with you, getting to write what I do. I wanna be clear, there's a reason I don't talk about this and it's that fear of,

you know, but if we're talking about where that this wound came from and where humor started to heal or cover that wound, not heal it, it's because it was a way for me to achieve connectedness because, hey, I happen to be a funny person. That like, that's cool.

George B. Thomas (45:16.335)
She's the life of the party! Mmmmm

Liz Moorehead (45:27.32)
And then, yeah, she's exhausted. She's exhausted. So when I think about what this question has forced me to ask myself over and over again and now doing it for a fourth time.

I think it tricked me into believing that being liked was the goal. Because it was the one thing I always lacked. Or felt I lacked.

And as I've started to unpack this over the past month or so, I've started to realize things like being funny is ultimately hollow if there is no steak. If it's just a big plate of pepper, you start to wonder, well, do I actually have anything of substance or value to contribute? I remember at an old job I had, I was one of our top speakers. And toward the end, one of the reasons I had to leave is because

George B. Thomas (46:17.807)
You

Liz Moorehead (46:29.367)
I'm not sure I have anything original to say. I'm funny and entertaining and our audience likes me a lot, but I'm not saying anything wholly original. I'm not saying anything really new. Am I just, and they didn't put me in this position. It was just like, you know, it was just circumstances, just what happened. But it kind of gave me an identity crisis of like, do I actually contribute anything?

George B. Thomas (46:48.047)
Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (46:58.552)
And so it's not necessarily that humor has been a shield for me per se. It's more that it was my way as an inherently very lonely person to feel less lonely. But the problem is is that I ended up still feeling lonely because nobody knew me. There was a version of me that existed out there.

George B. Thomas (47:10.511)
Mm.

Liz Moorehead (47:27.895)
It wasn't real. And so when I started tackling this question of what would happen if you take your goals seriously, that's when you start realizing like, shit, what are my goals? Like when I think about the writing I've been doing the past few weeks for Beyond Your Default, I will tell you I have felt the most alive I have ever felt doing that. And it scared me. Because when you start tapping into something real, that means you start giving yourself the vulnerability to lose something.

George B. Thomas (47:39.023)
Hmm.

George B. Thomas (47:47.343)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (47:59.159)
I don't know, that's where my brain went.

George B. Thomas (47:59.823)
Hmm. There's so much right there. Like, you can't lose something you never had. And you'll never have the thing if you actually don't embrace vulnerability. And so therefore, it's like a catch 22 where you don't ever actually reach the Mecca, the Nirvana, because you're afraid that you'll lose it, but you never got it because you weren't willing to take the journey anyway. Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (48:08.471)
Mm -hmm.

Liz Moorehead (48:27.062)
Yeah. So.

That's the honest answer. And what's funny is a couple of weeks ago, the answer probably would have been like, yeah, joke, like some version of that, jokester, trickster. But I think this is where I would always encourage people to ask the question behind the question. Is humor really the issue or is humor a symptom, right? Like your ankle could be swollen because it's broken, fractured, you twisted it, you sprained it. It could be a thousand different things. There are different root causes. So it's really figuring out like,

George B. Thomas (48:37.455)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (48:51.087)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (49:00.63)
What is the root?

George B. Thomas (49:02.991)
Yeah, it's interesting too, before we move on to the next question, I don't know how necessarily to unpack this, but I want the listeners to think about something that you said, because you mentioned the idea of like, I wanted to be liked. That was like a major goal. It's funny, because, and again, I know I'm not gonna do this justice, but when you said that, I was like, ooh, is my goal here to be liked?

Or is my goal here to learn? Or is my goal here to lead? And of course, we want to have great relationships, but how much does like versus love actually equal a great relationship? And is like surface of... Anyway, listeners, I want you to try to unpack this idea of just in a micro goal of like, do you do the things you do because you want to be liked?

versus you're doing the things that you do because you want to or need to lead or because you want to or need to learn or because you want to or need to love or be loved because there's a big difference between those things.

Liz Moorehead (50:11.443)
yeah. What's interesting too is that that type of writing I've done recently for Beyond Your Default newsletter has also leaked into my personal life. I woke up one morning last week and I was like, I need to apologize to someone. And then I sat down and basically wrote an essay and I just got really raw and vulnerable, you know, and I thanked them for being my friend over this past year. You know, it's, it's been a tough year and just wanted to own a few things with them and it.

George B. Thomas (50:20.975)
Nice.

Liz Moorehead (50:38.071)
brought us entirely closer, like it fundamentally changed everything. So it's fascinating. The mechanisms by which I think we think we can achieve closeness, true understanding, is usually the inverse of what will actually do it. It's not humor, it's vulnerability. It's not laughter, it's love, true love. It's not making people happy, it's being like, hey, we need to talk about this, right? That's when you show true love.

George B. Thomas (50:39.791)
Love it.

George B. Thomas (50:49.551)
Hmm.

George B. Thomas (51:03.407)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (51:06.359)
So I've talked a bit about what made humor an attractive shield for me, but George, I'd love to hear from you your thoughts on what you believe makes humor such an attractive shield for yourself or other people.

George B. Thomas (51:16.271)
Yeah, so in this question actually kind of was one of those, this scares the crap out of me questions. But the first word that came like rushing to my mind was, and again, this might be for me, it might be for you, for other people, for the listeners. But the first word that came rushing to my mind was diversion. Right. We've all seen the movie where like, hey, we need somebody to create a diversion.

so that they don't actually see what's happening over here. For me, it was, has been, humor is the diversion. Like the great and powerful laws, you're looking at the human, or humor, so you don't see the human, right? You don't see the man or woman behind the curtain, or in this case, behind the mask, right, of the person who is,

Liz Moorehead (51:58.007)
Yeah!

George B. Thomas (52:12.783)
presenting the humor. So like I immediately go to like, man, is it a diversionary tactic? A smoke in a mirror so they don't actually see who I am. They just like, that dude's a funny dude. So that's the first thing. But I think there's like five things that people might fall into and I'll keep these short. But like, I think it's an enticing shield humor.

because there's like emotional relief. And we've kind of alluded to the second one, social bonding. Humor is a great way, by the way, to do perspective change. I'll even throw in, I use diversion, but I'll even use deflection. And there's an interesting one that is like, it's very empowering, which by the way too, I think is a little bit of like,

there could be a whole other conversation as like humor as a drug for the person who is dispensing the humor. Because you get the atta boys and atta girls, you so funny. And then you're like chemicals go out, bubble up and you're like, I'm high on, you know. So, but as far as like these five things, right? When we think about an emotional relief, like humor helps us as individuals.

Liz Moorehead (53:19.61)
Mm -hmm.

Liz Moorehead (53:24.762)
You get the high. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (53:36.847)
In many cases, this is why I talked about joking my way past and through earlier. It helps us manage stress and anxiety by providing. And Liz, I wanted to say something about this when you were talking the word temporary, like it's a temporary bandaid. Right. So like, but it helps us manage stress, anxiety by providing a temporary escape.

from the difficulties that we might be facing that injected us into this like humor mode, this shield or sword. Exactly, exactly. So if we think about social bonding, like listen, shared laughter, which by the way, listeners just stop for a second. If you have to pause the podcast, pause it.

Liz Moorehead (54:11.289)
It covers the wound. It doesn't heal it.

George B. Thomas (54:29.551)
But I want you to stop and think about a time, if not multiple times in your life, where somebody started laughing and then you started laughing because they were laughing, but you didn't even know why they were laughing. Like we've all fall prey to that, right? And so shared laughter or humor has the ability to also strengthen relationships and foster a sense of community. And again, Liz, you were hitting on so many points where you said lonely,

I'll use the word isolation. And so when you're socially humorous, it reduces this feeling of I'm isolated on an island by myself because I have these other humans who are engaging with what I'm actually saying or doing in that moment. It is powerful for perspective change. Humor allows us to reframe.

negative situations. Again, we alluded to this, right? Comedians, ha ha ha, trauma. Like, it's reframing these negative situations to be less threatening and just, it doesn't feel as big as it should. Here's the problem, when it doesn't feel as big as it should, you also don't take care of the problem. And the problem sits there and festers and becomes a bigger problem.

because we tried to change the perspective of it with humor. Or maybe it actually can be changed with humor and we can get through the thing that we have. Deflection, humor can diffuse tension and prevent confrontations. This is a definitely at work one maybe, where you're like, and I'm just gonna not have confrontation, so I'll make a little funny here. And it's...

Watch a lot of leaders use humor in this moment in time to make difficult conversations more manageable. Because people let their guard down because there was like this humorous kind of moment. The setup, right, with humor before, maybe the potential let down of whatever's coming next in the conversation. And then I talked about empowerment. Humor can challenge authority.

George B. Thomas (56:52.399)
We can use humor to highlight social issues. We can use humor to provide even what I'll call a sense of control.

I'm gonna say this and I don't really want any hate mail, but I do want the listeners to think about one thing.

George B. Thomas (57:20.367)
Do you embrace the belief or have you said historically, man, I'm a control freak? And do you or have you historically said, I'm a funny guy or gal?

If you pair those two together...

you might wanna think about that for a second. Because are you using humor to enable yourself to be the control freak and create a mist of focality that you're not actually in control of anything? Anyway, again, I don't.

Liz Moorehead (58:02.998)
missed a falsality? What?

George B. Thomas (58:06.767)
I just, I don't want to hate males. So that's, anyway, with something like humor that has so many vectors to it, it has the potential to be a big part of our lives. And it is, and we can either pay attention to the part that it plays in our life, humor, or not. But I personally would suggest to pay attention to the,

part humor plays in your life because if you slice it, dice it, diagnose it, it just might say a lot about who you are under the surface. And, God, I just don't even know if I wanna say this part, but it might say a lot about who you are under the surface or maybe even how healthy you are under the surface.

Liz Moorehead (58:52.309)
You're gonna say it.

George B. Thomas (59:06.799)
Liz, what are your thoughts on my whole humor diatribe?

Liz Moorehead (59:12.501)
I couldn't agree more. I mean, there was a reason why I corrected myself earlier when I was speaking and I said, you know, it helped me heal the wound. I'm like, wait, no, it didn't heal. It just covered it. And that's what I think is fascinating about this. Humor becomes a mask. Humor becomes a shield. Humor can be a weapon. There's this great quote from Ravi Shankar who says, the intelligent use humor as a shield against humiliation. The cruel use humor as a sword to insult others.

The irresponsible use humor to escape from responsibility. The fool takes humor too seriously. Humor is spontaneous. To make an effort to be humorous makes no sense. What I love about this quote is that it speaks to the fact of something that really important that I want to point out here, which is that humor is not a bad thing. We're not suddenly saying, we all need to be serious Sally's who never make a joke. And like, really, that's funny. That's not what we're talking about here. What's actually interesting is that in this book underneath,

George B. Thomas (59:57.007)
Boring.

Liz Moorehead (01:00:09.208)
the description, it talks about these things kind of in energies, right? Like this humorous jokester trickster energy, however you want to think about it, right? It talks about what does it look like when it is in balance, what it is like out of balance, and how to bring it back into balance if you're struggling with it. So it talks about that when you're in balance with this energy, you're still charming, you're witty, you're fun to be around. But when you're out of balance, you're scrappy, you're petty, you're suspicious.

George B. Thomas (01:00:36.431)
Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:00:37.016)
And then what I love is that it says to bring it into balance sobriety. You can think about that in the most literal contexts in terms of like if you drink, if you do other things, or just a matter of, hey, maybe I just need to take off the mask for a second and be really honest with myself about what is going on here. Because...

One of the things I've noticed particularly in the past month as we've tried to record this podcast, it's so funny, I'm starting to think about like, I can't help but wonder how, there's a huge difference between how I would have answered these questions a month ago versus today. Because when I'm thinking about what makes it so freaking attractive is that it is so malleable. You are using humor, like,

George B. Thomas (01:01:20.911)
You

Liz Moorehead (01:01:26.68)
We are not always just the intelligent shielding against humiliation. We're not always just the cruel using it to insult others. It is something we can pull out and use at any time when some part of us is feeling under threat, whether that is an external thing that is coming toward us or something that is an imagined boogeyman from deep things, either in our past, in our childhood.

George B. Thomas (01:01:51.087)
Hmm

Liz Moorehead (01:01:56.09)
And so recently, here's what I've realized. The other couple of things that have happened this month is I got really sick. I've never been a big drinker. I used to be a beer writer, but like, and I would, I used to drink more probably socially when I was younger, but I was talking with my friend Kathleen Booth yesterday. We saw each other and we both ordered non -alcoholic beers at the bar. And I said, yeah, I actually can't remember the last time I drank. I said, that's really funny. Yeah, I just couldn't remember because I've been sick. I've been like running around all over the place.

I don't really have a space in my studio to keep that kind of stuff. And I'm like, well, you know, maybe it's just good. You know, I'll have it if I go out with friends. It's just not really. And I'm noticing now that over the past month, I have slowly been pulling away all the distractions. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (01:02:43.759)
So it's interesting because, well, first of all, there's a couple things I wanna unpack. One, as you were talking, I feel like the universe reached out and just smacked me across the face because I started this podcast with like, one, two, three, no, no, hey, we're gonna do it. When you were talking, I literally heard this like still small voice in the back of my head and it said, see, it wasn't no, it was wait.

Liz Moorehead (01:03:13.241)
Yeah, it's...

George B. Thomas (01:03:14.031)
wait for the conversation. It's not it's brewing. It's percolating. It's not ready yet. But when it's ready, I'll let you pour a nice juicy cup of like humor as a shield. And if you pay attention, your goals, I'm still doing good stuff. I'm still getting it ready. And I'm like, OK, like I literally like got the tingles like I didn't say no. I said, wait.

Liz Moorehead (01:03:17.497)
of brewing.

Liz Moorehead (01:03:30.841)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (01:03:36.441)
Wait, yep.

George B. Thomas (01:03:36.655)
The other thing too that I want to go back to Liz is that, okay, earlier in the podcast, we talked about how you lost like 50 some pounds. Now in the podcast, we're talking about how you're basically detoxing your body because you can't remember when you drank. So you've lost weight and you don't have the chemicals in your body that you historically had. Why do you think you can't sleep? Because your body's like, we're doing all sorts of changes here. Things aren't firing the way that they used to. What's actually like...

Liz Moorehead (01:04:05.656)
but then also from a.

George B. Thomas (01:04:05.775)
Like we have to, we have to pay attention to all those micros.

Liz Moorehead (01:04:09.367)
Well, here's the other thing too, though, from a psychological perspective, this is where it gets fascinating. What would happen if you took your goals seriously? Sometimes the best way you can take your goals seriously is to not actively focus on them. I have been desperately seeking meaning, purpose, understanding, a level of self -love that I don't think I've ever experienced. That has been my journey for the past 18 months or so, and it has been equal parts excruciating and enlightening and just exhilarating. Like, I love it.

But if I think about this past month, it has really started to crystallize like Liz, you used to hide behind food as much as you hid behind humor. You drank and that's fine. You know, like I'm not criminalizing that either. And your girl still loves a good bourbon. She's not going to say no to like, you know what I mean? Like there it's one of those things. But all of a sudden and we even talked about this just at the start of this episode, I've stopped holding on as much.

George B. Thomas (01:04:46.807)
Mmm. Mmm.

George B. Thomas (01:04:58.543)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:05:07.735)
I'm not as like, it's gotta look like this. Ooh, I have to be constantly busy. Like I've stopped going to a coffee shop that I usually go to a lot because I feel really distracted. And all of a sudden I have created a container from which like I'm only realizing this literally right now while we're recording this podcast. I have forced myself into a space where I can no longer hide.

George B. Thomas (01:05:14.159)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (01:05:32.143)
Yes. Which is exciting as...

Liz Moorehead (01:05:36.599)
It makes me want to vomit, but it's fine. It's fine. Love it.

George B. Thomas (01:05:38.383)
Makes me joyous. Like I think that that's where we reach the magical spaces is where when we remove all shadow of doubts of like, this is an empty room and there's nowhere to hide and people can see me for who I am and I have to see myself as who I am and.

And it makes me want to go to like this conversation I have with like God eyes. Like there I actively ask like, please let me see myself with God eyes, not my eyes, because I'm my worst enemy. But let me see myself with God eyes, because then I'm probably going to be able to make it through almost anything that the universe throws my way.

Liz Moorehead (01:06:27.863)
You know, God, this is so weird. This is so weird because I'm sitting here thinking about this question and what we're talking about here is what would happen if you take your goals seriously? What would happen if you believed you were worthy of even setting goals? What would happen if you believed you were worthy of achieving them? You know, because a friend of mine, a very dear friend of mine, I woke up yesterday morning and he had sent me at 4 a a TikTok about golf.

And in my head, I'm like, Dan, you delightful, beautiful snowflake. I don't play golf. I went to a driving range once lasted 10 minutes and threw my club and I hated it. It was awful. And so he sent me this thing and I'm watching him like, I don't understand anything of what is being said here. So I don't like watch it 15 times. I'm like Googling, like, what is firing at the flag? What is pin high? Like I have no idea what any of this means.

It was Tiger Woods being asked, what is one of the best pieces of advice he ever got? And hold on, I'll bring it up, because I shared it with a friend, because I was like, my friend Dan just sent me this weird thing, I don't understand it. And then about a few minutes later, I'm like, OK, this makes sense. So, I will. So it's Tiger Woods being asked about the best piece of advice he ever got, and it's to not shoot haphazardly.

George B. Thomas (01:07:29.583)
George B. Thomas (01:07:46.575)
We're gonna make sure we put this in the show notes too, by the way.

Liz Moorehead (01:07:56.759)
You have to pick a spot, your spot. You define what that spot is. What's interesting is that spot is very rarely shooting directly at the hole. It may be to the left of it. It may be to the right of it, but you define what that spot is. Most people will just aim for the hole in golf and like shoot for the best, but you have to pick your spot. And then once you do, you go after it aggressively and without fear.

George B. Thomas (01:08:30.383)
exam.

Liz Moorehead (01:08:30.582)
Yeah, I know. So I wrote it back. I'm like, it took me 20 minutes to decipher this, but damn. And also, Dan, it's 4 AM. Are you OK? So what are the costs of such an approach? When you think about the true, because we talk about personal bank accounts, energetic bank accounts, emotional bank accounts, what is the cost that's coming out when we live this way?

George B. Thomas (01:08:33.551)
Mm.

George B. Thomas (01:08:37.007)
Yeah, like that's there you go.

Yeah, right.

George B. Thomas (01:08:49.551)
Yeah.

Yeah.

George B. Thomas (01:08:55.919)
Yeah, it's funny, my brain raced to like, and it's been years now, which is crazy to say, when you said, what would happen if you showed up as your authentic self? And so my brain rushed to that and I was like, well, the first word that comes to mind is like inauthentic. You know, like you're just not able to be you, which is sad, like.

there's only one you on the planet. Like you were magically designed to like do something special and you can't be you because you're letting humor actually control your life versus you diagnosing and controlling the humor. I think about the diversion and deflection that I mentioned earlier, right? If you're deflecting and diverting,

We're not showing our authentic selves. We are literally hiding behind that shield or that mask that we've referenced of humor. When we do that, we end up creating a facade. Like, we mask our true feelings. We hinder our genuine emotional expressions.

And worse are general or genuine connections with the humans around us, which then totally makes us feel alone and on an island by ourself. It totally destroys like potential.

trust, liking, love on the other side of the relationships. And I think this could be due to a couple of reasons or lead maybe to a couple of issues. So.

George B. Thomas (01:10:55.119)
Just get a box, get a piece of paper, get a box, write a box, check the box if any of these like make sense to you. Cause we're gonna do like some good stuff. Well, we're gonna do some maybe harmful stuff and some good stuff. So first thing I want you to think about is emotional avoidance. Yeah, right, right to the jugular.

Liz Moorehead (01:11:18.891)
come on, man.

George B. Thomas (01:11:22.479)
Like using humor to deflect serious issues can prevent us as humans, individuals, from addressing underlying problems which leads to unresolved emotional distress. If you're living a life or trying to live a life beyond your default with unresolved emotional distress, it's like trying to climb a cliff with a Volkswagen bug strapped to your back. It is

almost impossible to reach the top of that cliff and continue on the journey. We have to check that little box if that's something that we know we need to work on.

Listen, we have humans around us at work, at home, wherever we go out, emails, calls.

But it might lead human humor in the wrong way might lead to relationship strain. Excessive humor or inappropriate humor. Why is it that like three people just flooded into my brain when I said that? Anyway, inappropriate humor can harm relationships and reduce trust, especially when used to mock or belittle others. Liz, this is exactly.

what I was talking about when I said years as a sword and I try not to do this anymore. Also, if we use humor too much as a shield, we can be misunderstood, leading to unintended, for sure, times when we offend people, or definitely it can lead to the escalation of conflicts that we've had in our lives.

George B. Thomas (01:13:14.287)
I can probably give you about a thousand and twenty -one times where somebody in my life, many times my wife, many times my kids, sometimes my parents,

I've tried to be humorous and it just did not work, ladies and gentlemen. It went south and actually escalated the conflict. so you think it's a joke? my gosh. Okay. But to live a more full and authentic life, we have to become skilled at balancing humor with sincere emotional engagement. And Liz, I love that you shared that quote.

because I was like, this is maybe one of the dopest quotes. And especially when it got to this part. Because by the way, if somebody came up to you on the street and said, let me ask you, is your goal to be irresponsible? You'd be like, no, my goal is not to be irresponsible. That's just stupid. Why would you ask me that? Yet, think about this whole conversation today.

the irresponsible use humor to escape from responsibility. Are you using humor as an escape mechanism?

I'll let that just sit there for a second for you. So Liz, like we'll talk about some good stuff here in a minute, but what are your thoughts on that?

Liz Moorehead (01:14:38.227)
Thanks.

Liz Moorehead (01:14:50.963)
You know, you could always be cliched, it's a life unlived. It's an inauthentic, like, and we talked about this, like an inauthentic life. And it's not that I disagree with those things, but when I reread this question after having written it, it was interesting to me where my brain is going now, which is.

Liz Moorehead (01:15:12.691)
For a while there, the cost of answering that question was too great a cost because I was afraid of what I would find. Because the one thing I don't think I've ever shared with you is that every single time you talk about the moment you had that conversation with me and I said, what would happen if you showed up as a whole -ass human and it opened you up?

George B. Thomas (01:15:25.039)
Dang.

George B. Thomas (01:15:28.847)
George B. Thomas (01:15:38.095)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (01:15:40.755)
So when I asked myself that question, because that's what happens afterward, I didn't know how to answer it.

George B. Thomas (01:15:44.879)
Right?

Liz Moorehead (01:15:51.251)
because I didn't know who I was. And so every time I watched you get empowered by that question and bring up that story, it was just this reminder of, and who the bleep are you?

George B. Thomas (01:16:01.519)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:16:04.178)
And so I avoided it for a very long time. Now to be clear, also every time we talked about it, it was deeply fulfilling because that is my work. That is what I do. That is something that made... But often I find myself in situations where I spend half of my waking hours, actually the majority of my waking hours, empowering people to be whole ass humans, to be whole ass versions of themselves. And I know it's like a joke, those who can't do teach, those who can't play coach. Like really.

But that's a deeply existential way to have a disconnect. But when I think about it, the reason why I wanted to talk about this, even though it made me deeply uncomfortable, and the reason why I'm glad we're finally having this conversation, is that the cost of answering this question is a lot. It's painful. You have to go to dark places in some cases. And you also have to admit.

George B. Thomas (01:16:37.743)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (01:17:02.13)
There's that sunken fallacy cost thing, right? Like we'll keep pouring energy and literal money into things even though we know they're bad for us just because we can't walk away. Like we're already too invested. But then there are things like with me where it's like, well, do you even know what a whole ass version of Liz is? Yeah. But the thing is the actual cost of not doing this, the actual cost of not being willing to open this up.

George B. Thomas (01:17:19.631)
Mm. Mm.

Liz Moorehead (01:17:29.426)
is just what you said. It is that life unlived. It is wildly inauthentic. You will chase things that do not feed you because you have no internal compass with a true north that is set that helps you discern what is for you, what is not for you. You are chasing temporary highs versus lasting things. Are you entertaining or are you effective?

George B. Thomas (01:17:53.711)
Yeah, it's interesting. He mentioned cost and I want people to realize, and you like a sunken cost, but in the other way, I look at the cost as like, but it's an investment that you'll get returns on. Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (01:18:05.875)
Mm -hmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:18:14.323)
Yeah, and I think that's a difference. Like what are the, the cost is the cost of like just continuing to wield humor as a shield, a tool, a weapon with no thought as to why you're here. You know, that is a cost. That is death by paper cut. That is it. That is something that will not literally kill you, but it will kill you. You will wake up one day looking in a mirror going, what am I doing?

George B. Thomas (01:18:32.943)
Yep.

George B. Thomas (01:18:38.511)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (01:18:42.643)
Who even am I? Like a complete disassociation. But then the turnaround is like, it is an investment to sit down and say, all right, guys, how did we get here? Who's walking this pony? Right? Anyway, so this challenge, the challenge this poses to us all is to question what would happen if we took our goals seriously, right? Like that's where this whole conversation began. So George, the final question I have for you today.

George B. Thomas (01:18:57.711)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:19:13.139)
is to you, what does taking your goals seriously look like in practice?

George B. Thomas (01:19:20.015)
Yeah, and I may be weird or this may be for like most of us humans. I think actually most of us humans probably look at this question, we'll look at this question differently. Just because it's, it really just depend on the goal and it depends on where you're at in your journey. But for me, there's some core concepts that I think...

all of us have to have in place if we take our goals seriously and truly try to build a life beyond our default. The first one, and by the way,

I don't know if I had heard this, listen, this is gonna be a little bit of an inside joke. I don't know if I had heard this pre -2012 in HubSpot Academy, okay? But I've heard it a metric butt ton in the years since. And that is this concept of clear planning and the first time I heard smart goals. The...

Liz Moorehead (01:20:28.53)
my gosh.

George B. Thomas (01:20:29.231)
defining defining specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound goals. And if if you're like, I'm not in the HubSpot Academy ecosystem and actually I haven't really heard of smart goals versus just setting my goals, then you'll probably want to jot down specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound, because that truly is a great framework for building great goals and.

create a detailed action plan with milestones versus I have a goal. And really what you have is a wish or a dream because there's totally different things. So clear planning would be the thing for me. Like, and you know, like when I have a goal, there's usually a list of things that is coming around with that goal as well. The other piece and some of us have,

issues with this. But you gotta be willing to commit. Like, I did HubSpot so far for 12 years and HubSpot content for 10. Like, I'm very committed. I'll be married next year 24 years. Like, you have to get...

And again, some people have commitment issues, but you have to get real good at commitment. And what this looks like for me is like dedicated time and resources like based on keeping me consistent and prioritizing tasks related to the goals, the SMART goals that we just talked about above, making sure to watch out for.

distractions that are gonna come along the way. By the way, we could be the distraction. Something external could be the distraction, but how do you stay committed with dedicated time and resources and prioritizing tasks and staying away from distractions? This is how you're gonna reach those SMART goals. The other piece,

George B. Thomas (01:22:46.703)
And if you're in that world that Liz and I talked about earlier where it's like lonely or on an island by yourself, there's two parts to this. But the third thing I want to mention, and it's been huge in my life, by the way, I've used Facebook Reels as this partner historically. When I first started taking my walks, I would do a Facebook Reel and I would like put it down and like, I'm out here.

Liz Moorehead (01:23:11.538)
Yes!

George B. Thomas (01:23:15.311)
because I wanted people to see that I was out there because it was my accountability partner. And so what I mean by this is you have to track your progress regularly and adjust your strategies as needed and hold yourself accountable. But also you need to be looking for external accountability if you can. And that could be as easy as sharing your goals with a mentor or a support group or a friend.

Or like I just said, I was sharing it with Facebook mess or Facebook reels every time I'd go out my door and I'd start my walk and just be like, I'd say a couple of things that are on my brain and show my feet, little feet going down the sidewalk. Like this is the dumbest thing ever, but it's my accountability partner. We've done a whole episode on this next one that I want to hit.

Liz Moorehead (01:23:59.122)
Hehehehehe

George B. Thomas (01:24:09.039)
And that is like a growth mindset. But just in general, let's back up 50 ,000 foot and just talk about focus on growth. Like if you're going to reach those goals, you're going to have to do something different to become what you've never become. I stole that quote. I don't remember who said it, but you're going to have to do those different things. You're going to have to embrace learning and development.

to put the new things in you, to get the new results that push you to your goal. And so during that, you educational process, you might seek feedback. You're gonna definitely acquire new skills and you're gonna be able to adapt to the challenges that come along the way with those very specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time -bound goals that you're actually trying to hit upon. And Liz?

Before this podcast, this next one would have never, like before like Beyond Your Default in general podcast, this one would have never showed up. But the other thing that I wanna mention as we kinda close this bad boy out is self -care. And.

Liz Moorehead (01:25:12.978)
Mm -hmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:25:24.37)
My gosh, I'm so proud. I'm so proud. Yes, yes. For those of you, if this is your first episode, go back to our self care episode in which we discussed George questioning whether we should even have the topic. So we've come a long way, baby.

George B. Thomas (01:25:36.719)
Yeah, yeah. Look, maintaining a healthy work -life balance and being able to sustain long -term motivation and productivity is crucial and key. And the only way that you're going to get that long -term motivation, productivity, or long -term life is if you don't burn that candle at both ends. If you don't...

break that candle into 17 pieces because you're just like, whatever. So you definitely have to have self care for yourself during the journey of trying to actually achieve those goals that you are taking seriously. And listen, I want to circle back around and just say using humor as a shield or weapon can negatively impact our goals by serving as a distraction.

diverting our attention from serious tasks and undermining the focus needed for the achievements that we're trying to get to. It can, using it, humor can lead to avoidance, where individuals rely on humor to cope with stress or conflict. This presents us from addressing underlying issues and results in, mm.

I have had historically problems with this word by the way. Procrastination. Anybody else? Just me? In - never. Inappropriate humor can strain professional and personal relationships, reducing the support network crucial for achieving the goals that you're now taking seriously. And overuse of humor, particularly in professional settings, can harm one's credibility.

Liz Moorehead (01:27:06.61)
No!

George B. Thomas (01:27:25.935)
and hinder opportunities. My grandpa used to say this thing and I love it because it fits in here, but also it just is a good life advice. It's better to be quiet and be thoughtful than open your mouth and remove all doubt. And so like being careful of what you say and how you say it, especially around humor and understanding that could be a direct line of your credibility or hindering it and the opportunities or advancements.

or collaboration that you may have in the future. On the flip side though, let's end on a positive note. Humor can significantly aid in achieving the goals by providing emotional relief and reducing the stress along the journey, which enhances focus and productivity. Humor helps create a positive mindset, making it easier to tackle challenges and setbacks with resilience.

Humor also strengthens social bonds, improving collaboration and support from colleagues and peers, friends and family. And appropriate humor can enhance team dynamics and create a more enjoyable work environment in professional settings, boosting overall morale and motivation of you and the team. So by maintaining a balanced use of humor versus OE Shield,

or always sort or whatever version of this for you works, you can create an atmosphere conducive to achieving those goals that you're now actually believing that you can achieve and, dare I add, effectively living a life beyond your default.