Liz Moorehead
Episode Transcript
Liz Moorehead (00:01.816)
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your host, Liz Moorhead, and as always, I'm joined by the one, only George B. Thomas. And George, I gotta be perfectly honest before I welcome you to your own show. This is one of the first episodes where you haven't either teased me or something about the topic that we're gonna be talking about today, and somehow the silence is even more concerning. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. We'll throw that out there. But why don't we just start with our usual, what's your highlight and your low light for the week, bud?
George B. Thomas (00:11.316)
wow.
George B. Thomas (00:24.034)
Mmm. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (00:32.194)
Man, so highlight, I think is probably the fact that I am really enjoying this AI content creation journey. And the reason I'm bringing that up is because I started to create something special around beyond your default and the personal growth.
side specifically, but also just leaning into like what we're building with the superhuman framework, along with beyond your default and the human side and AI side. And dare I say Liz, the highlight and a key piece in my brain is this conversation around collaboration, collaboration with AI collaboration with humans. And so there's
That's my highlight is just that little twinkle in my mind lately. The low light, I don't know if I necessarily have a like deep dark, my God, existential crisis. But I will say the low light is I don't know if I necessarily have been taking enough time for me lately.
Liz Moorehead (01:55.844)
Uh-uh. Hmm? How's that self-care treating ya?
George B. Thomas (01:58.614)
doing all the collab, yeah, doing all the collaborations, you know, you gotta pay attention to the, well, yeah, self care, it's funny because as we were prepping for this episode, one of the things I'm gonna mention is my family. But as I was prepping, I was like, but I haven't done what I'm about to talk about in a while.
Liz Moorehead (02:27.352)
And I got to be honest with you, George, we have a check-in episode coming up in a few episodes, so you might, well, before teacher figures it out. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (02:31.68)
Oooooh
Mmm. might yeah, so so I need to I need to refocus a little bit on actually taking some time to just be still Be me and chill instead of all the works But yeah, that's my lowlights and highlights Liz. What about you this week?
Liz Moorehead (02:55.022)
So I will admit, I was thinking about this this morning as I was getting my morning copy, that my low light is a recognition that I have done a terrible job of taking any time for myself. No, George, think about it. When was the last time I ever took a vacation since we started working together?
George B. Thomas (03:10.594)
So hey, we're rhyming.
George B. Thomas (03:20.306)
I don't know if you have actually
Liz Moorehead (03:23.488)
Yeah, I have this tendency to take trips but continue to work. And this is something I noticed was a big problem. I haven't hit any sort of burnout. I haven't hit any sort of threshold, but there is some sort of guilt wrapped around the idea of stepping away. And I haven't figured.
George B. Thomas (03:29.066)
Yeah, yeah.
George B. Thomas (03:38.818)
Hmm.
George B. Thomas (03:44.746)
Yeah, there's, yeah.
Liz Moorehead (03:46.422)
Yeah, and I haven't figured that out yet. Because yeah, I had the same realization you did. Because I was like, well, I've taken trips, but I'm always available and I'm always working. I'm always, and so that for me was a low light in that as much as I like to sit here and wag the finger at you, I have been criminally bad at being just Liz the human. And then wondering why sometimes I feel little fractures in my creativity, you know?
George B. Thomas (03:54.476)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Liz Moorehead (04:14.966)
If you want to become a better creative or a better writer in my case, go live life. If you're constantly chained to your desk, you're not living, you know? And so that was something I'm trying to be mindful, because I just had my birthday a couple of weeks ago and I've been thinking mindfully about, you know, what do I want my 42nd into 43rd year to look like? And the thing I am really looking for is I have moved out of survival mode, right? And I did a lot of work to get where I am and I'm very
George B. Thomas (04:19.584)
yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:35.513)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (04:44.782)
proud of how I got myself here. Was it always pretty? No, it was messy. It was bloody. We made some mistakes along the way. But what got me here isn't going to get me where I'm going. And so it's making that shift of, now that we're out of the mud, where do I want to go? How do I actually start living? So I'd say that was a low light. Highlight is I've been able to actually stay with the best friend of mine over the past.
George B. Thomas (05:08.734)
You
Liz Moorehead (05:14.84)
few days, she also works for herself. do the same work. And just getting to see her kids has been great. I've been a human jungle gym pretty much as soon as I clock out, as soon as I clock out around six o'clock every day, she's a, I got kids all over me. And that's just always good. You know, I think I don't really want to dig into current events, but I think there is whenever I see children, I feel a lot of hope for the future. Like there's just such this beautiful optimism about them.
George B. Thomas (05:16.319)
Nice Nice
George B. Thomas (05:33.594)
yeah Yeah
Liz Moorehead (05:44.996)
And it was just being around unabashed kid joy is just so soothing because I think as adults we forget how to play. We forget what lights our fires, which actually gets us into today's topic because last episode we talked about the first cornerstone of the superhuman framework, right?
George B. Thomas (05:55.446)
We need to bottle it up.
George B. Thomas (06:00.044)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (06:03.67)
does.
Liz Moorehead (06:10.604)
And the superhuman framework, went through the 10 H's, the daily habits and qualities we cultivate to live a life beyond our default. But the cornerstones like purpose, and now the conversation we're going to have today, passion, these are the things that give us the emotional and motivational foundation to apply those habits effectively in our lives, right? Because you can have humor and humanity and holiness and all these things, but if you don't have purpose giving you direction, if you don't have passion lighting you up,
George B. Thomas (06:29.115)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (06:39.598)
You're just kind of going through them. You're busy. You're not productive. Right? So that's what we're talking about today. Right? We're talking about passion. Now is passion really that big of a deal? I am not asking that rhetorically. I'm someone who likes to ask questions. I think for me, I wanted to know the answer to this question because sometimes I wonder, are we just chasing a high that doesn't really exist?
George B. Thomas (06:43.202)
Mmm, yeah.
Liz Moorehead (07:07.3)
The reality is though is that passion is actually kind of a big deal. So research shows that individuals with high levels of work passion are more likely to report engagement, vitality and productivity in their roles. It improves their task performance and it makes them feel more satisfied in their jobs as opposed to those who lack satisfaction or passion for their work. However, despite the push for passion in career paths, and I think this is something we've seen a lot in post pandemic life,
George B. Thomas (07:17.438)
You
Liz Moorehead (07:34.904)
where people have continued to redefine, do you work to live or do you live to work? Where are you actually putting those energy hours, right? But despite this push, only about 13 % of employees globally feel genuinely passionate about what they do. Most people say that they do not feel an alignment between the work that they do and the personal values that they hold. But obviously work is not the only place that we see passion.
George B. Thomas (07:47.646)
You
George B. Thomas (07:57.453)
Sheesh.
Liz Moorehead (08:02.148)
Right? So engaging in non-work passions significantly boosts wellbeing and life satisfaction, regardless as to whether or not those passions are tied to your job. And 52 % of people who dedicate time to a creative hobby or passion report enhanced problem-solving skills and creative thinking in other areas of our lives. So it not only makes us feel more fulfilled, we become better problem-solvers. We become more mentally acute and engaged in our own lives.
So today that's what we're doing, George. We're exploring what it means to live with passion. How to reconnect with your inner fire when it feels dim or if it was ever lit in the first place. And knowing the difference between true passion and fleeting excitement. You excited to dig into this?
George B. Thomas (08:36.074)
Yeah
George B. Thomas (08:51.209)
I am. I think it's gonna be a very interesting conversation.
Liz Moorehead (08:56.792)
Well, let's start with you, George. You know, I love to always start you with a softball. Ligini, hi, it's okay. I know you always get me back. But I would love to hear from you what your journey has been like for you in discovering your own passions. And what should that path of discovery look like for others? discovering what you love is not easy.
George B. Thomas (09:01.25)
The guinea pig. Yeah.
Ha
George B. Thomas (09:18.752)
Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's definitely not an easy button, but it's definitely needed. When it comes to discovering my own passion, Liz, it's been this, let's just say it's been a real journey. One full of twists, turns.
Definitely unexpected stops. And I would even say the occasional smack in the face where it's like you have these wake up moments. And we've talked about some of those on previous podcast episodes of my life. But, you know, I can remember in my younger days, like I used to think that passion was supposed to be this big, like dramatic moment where everything suddenly clicked into place, you know, and fireworks are going off and it's like this magical moment. But
Honestly, for me, it's been a lot more like peeling back layers to reveal what really lights me up in my soul, in my core, in like the depth of who I am as a human. And it's, you know, it's been a slow build sometimes. And one that has kind of taught me that passion isn't just about this.
excitement or this excited feeling, but it really is at least the passion that I think we should be looking for along this Beyond Your Default journey is it's about depth.
It's about connection. It's the things that pull you back that make you want to keep showing up. And especially when things get tough. And I don't want to get into persistence yet. That's another episode. But when things get tough and you've got that purpose and you've got the passion, you know, one of the big passions I've shared on this podcast before, and I think maybe the reason for the podcast is I'm passionate about helping others.
George B. Thomas (11:15.306)
That's been a constant for me, whether I was being a blessing bomber after I learned about that at the church with Pastor Dave. And we've talked about that, like in historical podcasts, but even like if you look at the superhuman framework, what is the core essence of that? Well, to help others. And if I look at my pastless lifeguard, repelling instructor, pastor, riding instructor, HubSpot hero, like
What am I doing every single time? I'm helping others. And again, I list all those things out, but it isn't just about the roles. It's about this kind of inner drive that I have to make a difference. Like, I want to make a difference. I talk about the ripples. I want to be able to give people the tools, the best practices, the mindsets, the hacks, the whatever you want to call it.
to improve their lives. Like this is what I'm passionate about. This is what I keep coming back to again and again and again. And it's what makes me feel like I'm doing meaningful work or being a meaningful human to the other humans around me because I want to make an impact. I want to be a catalyst. Right. And and that's a passion that's been both rewarding
and humbling at the same time because Liz it pushes me to be honest. It pushes me to listen to really understand what people need and then do my best to deliver. Now I just said that towards me. What I would want the listeners to understand is it will push you your passion your true passion will push you to be honest with yourself.
to listen to yourself and those around you, to understand what you and those around you need, and then do your best to deliver that thing for them that you're passionate about. Another passion that's deeply rooted in my life is self-growth. Again, why are we on this podcast? Why have we gone through the trenches in the last, like, plus year?
George B. Thomas (13:31.136)
I mean, listen, we've had good talks about this before, but I'm always diving into self-reflection. I'm analyzing my past experiences and I'm digging into the big whys of my life. And I would ask the listeners, like, are you digging into the whys? You literally, in the beginning of this, like, I haven't taken a vacation. Why?
Like, what am I choosing to do and why in the future as I go from the 42 to the 43, right? This is a big reason I talk about living beyond your default in general, by the way. On this podcast, I've seen how easy it is to get stuck in routines that don't serve us. And these routines that keep us from becoming who we could be. And so,
I'm passionate about self-growth because self-growth is more than a hobby for me. It's a passion that drives me to keep challenging myself, challenging others, to try new things, and to see just how far I or we as a group can go. And so it's about becoming something greater than we ever thought possible because of the purpose and the passion aligning and us running with it.
The last thing I'm going to mention in this section and I kind of alluded to this at the beginning of the podcast is my family. They're honestly one of my biggest passions. I've shared stories here about being a dad and a husband. My passion for my family isn't just about spending time with them. Like they, they drive me to be a better person. Like I know
without them. I am not the George that I am right now. And whether it's taking, you know, one of my daughters or one of my sons out for like a one on one dinner or to a movie or just showing up to love and support them or stepping out of my comfort zone for like a girl day or a spa day or, you know, and listen, I've talked about the nail salon before. I'm not hiding from it. You mentioned self care. I think that's a great way for self care.
Liz Moorehead (15:48.504)
You know, I love that for you. I love that for you. It makes me so happy for you. Get that massage.
George B. Thomas (15:48.626)
George B. Thomas (15:52.77)
But yeah, but here's the thing, like, when it comes to my family and the passion for my family, I'm in it heart and soul, right? Because I understand that my family is my anchor, the source of so much joy. And I would even say like a level of resilience. And it's not just the small stuff, by the way, like, listen, hiring them?
giving them space to grow and find their paths, seeing them become their future selves is like one of my greatest joys I know. And trust me, it's not always easy. Like your passion can also have struggle points. But look, I don't want to make it sound like it's this like, fantastic magical thing because discovering what your passion about like me understanding those three things
and being able to talk about them today, they weren't always known and it wasn't always simple to be able to communicate that. For anyone listening to this podcast, you're trying to find your own passions, like here's what I would say, it's okay if it's not some huge aha moment. I go back to like the fireworks and it doesn't have to be like, like.
You could start by exploring what makes you feel connected to something on a deep level, even if it's like this tiniest of small spark, this quiet feeling.
Right? Rather than those fireworks that we think that passion needs to be. Listen, I'll never forget this moment I had at an event in California for a business I started called Graphics for Worship. This is years and years and years ago. And I was standing there selling this company and all of sudden I had goosebumps, like this goosebumps moment where I realized that so many of the jobs I had had, honestly, it was like six or seven of them, that I, all of sudden I saw them all align.
George B. Thomas (17:58.454)
with what I was doing right then, right there in that space. And it was like, So I was able to get a aha moment, but it was because of these small steps along the way that when the moment came and I saw the alignment, I was like, this is who I'm being set up to be. This is why I'm passionate about these things. this leans into this purpose.
And it was like seeing the stars of my own life line up. And by the way, I love and live for those moments when I feel like it's all connected and you start to see the reason for why things are happening. So listen, you don't have to have it all figured out right away. What I would beg you to do,
as you move forward on this topic and with this framework or just even this just one element of your life is keep paying attention to what sparks your curiosity and what the things that make you feel more alive because passion and the passions that you have will change and they'll grow just like we do as humans.
And the things that I'm passionate about now weren't always the same, and that's okay. So you have to give yourself the freedom to keep exploring. This is why I talk about curiosity in life. You have to keep showing up. And we'll talk about resilience in another episode. And remember, finding what you love, what you're passionate about, what gives you energy, it's an ongoing journey.
Liz Moorehead (19:44.366)
So in our last episode, you talked a lot about how purpose can feel like a compass guiding us, Keeping us, showing us what the direction is, and then keeping us on course if we fall off the path. And then you've talked about passion, which can sometimes feel like a fire driving us. So I'd love to hear how, in your experience, purpose and passion work together to create this more meaningful life that we're looking for.
George B. Thomas (20:10.818)
Yeah, first of all, I love that we're looking for a meaningful life because the opposite is not really something worth chasing. And I love this conversation around the connection, right? The connective tissue, if you will, between purpose and passion and kind of how they work together to create this life beyond your default or meaningful life that you're trying to do. I do like to think of purpose as the why behind everything we do.
It's that guiding star. You mentioned compass, but like, you know, guiding star that gives us direction, especially when we end up and we always do on paths that feel a little unclear or a little rocky. Purpose tells us where we're headed. And again, it's like this for me, it's kind of been like this steady unwavering force helping us helping me make decisions that align with
the core values or the vision for what matters in my life. Now for everybody that's gonna be different. But I do want you to kind of pay attention to this idea of values and vision for what matters most in your life. That's the piece that I would want you to pull out when it comes around purpose. For passion on the other hand it's...
Again, I've mentioned it a couple times. It's that spark. It's the energy that gets us moving. It's the excitement, the drive, the fire that keeps us going even when things get tough. It's what makes us want to follow that purpose, to actually pursue what matters and to not do what a lot of us have probably done and what a lot of humans do a lot of times. And that is to just talk about it or just
think about it, but not to do about it. Right. And the idea here with passion is it's it's about the doing for me. Passion is what makes purpose come alive. It's the fuel that transforms purpose from an idea, a thought, a thing that I might talk about into something that I actually start to live out. On a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly, but I'm living it out.
George B. Thomas (22:33.238)
In my own experience, these two purpose and passion, I literally look at this as they aren't separate things, but so many people and I personally looked at them for years as separate things. I do want you to envision them as two sides of the same coin. Like take this podcast, for example, or even the superhuman framework that we're talking about and building out. My purpose here is to help people grow. Right? This podcast. That's my purpose.
to come and tell stories, to do research, to have conversations with Liz, so to help people grow. By the way, one of those people is me. Another one of those people is Liz. The other people, you. Yeah, listening. But people to grow and to equip them with the tools, the tactics, the hacks, the strategies for a better life. But it's my passion for seeing real change, my passion for making a difference that keeps me coming back.
over and over week after week after week. It keeps me fired up and ready to go episode after episode after episode. So so purpose might be the reason I do this, but passion is what brings the energy and enthusiasm that I need to keep at it over and over again. And like it doesn't matter because if it was one person, right, the mathematics of one one person, one episode, one change, then it's worth it. But that's because the passion is the enthusiasm.
to do that, to keep creating, to keep sharing, to keep pushing forward. And let's be real, like there are days when purpose alone might not be enough to get you through. And that's where passion steps in. Passion reminds you of the joy. Passion reminds you of the excitement, of the thrill of being on a journey that freaking truly matters. And I think this is why so many people struggle when they feel disconnected from either their purpose
or their passion. Like. Get your notepad ready, because if you're just running on purpose. Life can start to feel heavy. And things can start to feel like obligations. If you're running on just passion without purpose, it's easy to get burned out or definitely lose direction. So purpose and passion work together to give us both direction.
George B. Thomas (25:01.138)
and momentum. Purpose gives us the roadmap and passion keeps us moving, helping us embrace the journey with all its ups and downs, the hills and valleys. And when these two aren't individual, like I just mentioned a second ago, when they're in sync, not the band, by the way, much more of a Backstreet Boys fan than in sync. But that's not why we're here. Not why we're here.
Liz Moorehead (25:24.248)
Thank you. Thank you.
George B. Thomas (25:27.638)
But when they're in sync, that's when we feel like we're not just existing, but as humans, because we have our purpose and our passion, we're truly living. And dare I say, living a life beyond art of fall. But Liz, I'm super curious because I get to throw questions back in your corner every now and then. Like, what are your thoughts here, just in general of the question, but also based off of what I've kind of shared?
Liz Moorehead (25:57.22)
You know, there are a couple of things that you've said so far that have really stuck out to me. And one of the most important things you said is that if you're waiting for this big aha moment of what your passions are, you're gonna, my brothers and sisters in Christ, you're gonna be waiting forever, right? That's not how any of this works. I think sometimes we go out into this world and we have this assumption of there's already a predetermined answer. There is no act of curiosity or discovery.
George B. Thomas (26:23.014)
Hmm
Liz Moorehead (26:26.326)
And I also think that a lot of people when they're going out, whether we're talking about purpose or passion, because you're to your point, they're two sides of the same coin, right? There is an assumption there's only one answer. There is an assumption that that answer won't change or evolve over time. I love what you said there about purpose. If you're just leaning, weighted too heavily on the purpose side, then life feels like homework. You're just out there every day.
I am a cog in the machine. have a purpose and it doesn't light me up. Right? Like one of the things I love to talk with my clients about on the marketing side of what I do is that are we here to solve real problems or imagined ones? And when I think about passion, I then ask myself, okay, if we're solving a real problem, not an imagined one, am I excited to solve this problem?
George B. Thomas (27:02.905)
Yes.
George B. Thomas (27:18.85)
You
Liz Moorehead (27:20.83)
Or some of my favorite ways to think about it is I am passionate. My purpose is to be a catalyst for catalysts. But my passions such as writing, know writing, storytelling, looking at someone and helping them see what I already see in them. Those are my passions, my tools that help me live and fuel my purpose. So it's interesting. I see them as two sides of the same coin, but I also see passion as
as my tools, right? I get really passionate about stories. I get really passionate about people. And that's what helps me solve the real problems in front of me, which is how do I help the people who are meant to change the world? How do I change their world in their own backyard? Like that is always the problem that I am trying to solve. Cause the moment I can help a catalyst catch their own vision is the moment it becomes easier for them to do it for other people, right?
George B. Thomas (28:12.518)
you
Yeah. That's a lot.
Liz Moorehead (28:17.186)
So when I think about purpose and passion, they go together. You can have a purpose, but if it doesn't excite you, if it doesn't wake up some sort of fire in you, I like to use passion as a litmus test, right? We're gonna get into this a little later, right? Like there's reason why it's called work kids, not happy fun time, recess, explosion, fair, extravaganza, balloon, confetti cannon, right? Like, cause sometimes it just feels like work and that's okay.
But I like to use passion as a litmus test in terms of is this really my purpose? Are these the problems I am built to solve? Because if there isn't something that sparks me about it, right? Because you and I could go do a lot of things for a lot of different people. know, we're a little bit of a Swiss army knife. I can go out and solve a lot of different problems than the ones I am choosing to solve. And that's because I am passionate about
George B. Thomas (29:01.233)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (29:14.402)
these specific problems and I have certain internalized passions that make me perfectly equipped to solve these. That's how I view them as working together for me. So when I was doing research for this episode, I came across something very interesting that I want to talk to you about. There's this idea in psychology of two different types of passions. The first is harmonious, right? Harmonious passion is described as a balanced
George B. Thomas (29:24.13)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (29:43.082)
joyful engagement in something we love, where we're able to switch it off and stay in control. Then there's the second type, which is obsessive passion. And this is a bit more intense. It's the drive to pursue something we love, but it's with a sense of compulsion that can lead to stress or even conflict with other parts of our lives. So I'd love to hear from you what your thoughts on these are and how we recognize the difference in ourselves.
Because to me, this is something that I think that matters, but I'd love to hear from you.
George B. Thomas (30:15.938)
Yeah, this was this was the question for me when I started to go through us because so first of all, well, maybe not in the way that you're thinking right now, Liz, I have to admit and listeners, I'm admitting to you right now. I had no clue about this harmonious versus obsessive passion thing until I read the show notes that you sent over.
Liz Moorehead (30:24.335)
Really?
George B. Thomas (30:43.114)
Now what I will say about that is it's been fun to dig into these two concepts and reflect on how it shows up or how it has showed up in my life with like this new kind of vision. Because this harmonious versus obsessive passion, it really brings kind of this, I'll call it a new layer of understanding to what it means to follow something we love.
things that I have loved and followed without letting it take over everything. And so by the way, I'm gonna repeat a little bit of what you said so that the listeners don't have to rewind because I wanna break it down and then move forward because I feel like there might be a few listeners that are sitting here going, hmm, sounds interesting, hashtag no clue, right? So like you said,
This harmonious passion. It's like this balanced, joyful state where you as the human are fully engaged with something you love, but, but it doesn't run your entire life. That's a very key point in that. You can show up, you can dive in, you can give it your all, but then,
when it's time you can step back, recharge and focus on other things that matter too. As soon as I was like getting to this part and researching this part, I started to ask myself questions like, can I do that with my work? Can I dive in, give it my all and then step back and recharge?
and let go. I started to ask that question to several key things in my life because then it helps me judge if it's harmonious or not. So.
George B. Thomas (32:47.33)
The thing though, this idea, it's fulfilling because it integrates well with the rest of our life. This is why I started to ask the questions. Is the thing integrating with my life, with my family, with my friends, with my health? Is it integrating with all the good stuff?
All right, so now on the other side, obsessive passion has a completely different, we'll call it vibe. It's that intense, almost relentless drive where you feel compelled to keep going no matter the cost. That's the key point I think that I would want to shine a spotlight on for keep going no matter
the cost. You might start sacrificing other important areas of your life. Maybe even your own well-being because you're so focused on this one thing so passionately. And sometimes you don't even realize it's happening because you're I'm just into it. I'm just into this thing. It doesn't matter that I generated 14 ebooks on a weekend. I'm just passionate and I'm into it.
no, nothing else existed that weekend? Hmm. You see, but over time this can start to create stress. It definitely goes into burnout. It conflicts with other areas that are important to you in your life, even though you can't see it because you're in the mix or the moment. For me, it's.
It's taken some real self-reflection to recognize when I'm leaning too far into obsessive passion and I'm trying to be as honest as I can as I'm talking through this on this episode. Take the superhuman framework that we've been building out, for instance. I'm passionate about building this and sharing it with people, with the world, with organizations and individual humans. But there are times... Yes, there are.
George B. Thomas (35:09.44)
When I catch myself feeling that compulsion to keep going, keep tweaking, keep producing content, dare I say when I'm exhausted or even when it's pulling me away from other things that I care about like client work or family time or the ability to focus on my own health and maybe go walk a mile or two.
That's a sign that I need to pull back and find that harmony again. So how do we recognize the difference in ourselves? Like what is a way that we can do this? For me it starts with asking myself a few questions and and I'm gonna start to do this more in the future now that I have the understanding thanks to Liz in this podcast episode of these two things. So here's the questions I want you to jot down on your notepad.
Am I enjoying this process or am I feeling pressured by it? There's a big difference between enjoying and pressure. And if you ask yourself the question, document it and think about it. The next question I want to ask myself is, can I walk away from it when I need to? Or do I feel like I can't stop?
That question right there for me is a dangerous question. Because if I look historically, there's a lot of times where I would be like, I just felt like I couldn't stop.
And by the way, I didn't. I have a meeting in 10 minutes. I can't go to the hospital right now because everybody thought I had a heart attack. Like, so the third question I have to start to ask myself and hopefully the listeners will ask themselves, is this passion enhancing my life? Or is this passion starting to take a toll? And see, if the answers point to feeling tense and stressed,
George B. Thomas (37:09.982)
or out of balance, then listen listeners and to myself, that is a pretty good signal that it is moving into obsessive territory. And that's not where we want to be. Why does this matter?
We all need to understand that harmonious passion keeps us grounded. Harmonious passion keeps us happy. Harmonious passion keeps us in control. It allows us to keep showing up without the most worst possible thing happening. It allows us to keep showing up without losing ourself.
But obsessive passion can drain us, make us feel out of control, and ultimately lead to burnout, which is the opposite of what we want when we're doing something we love. We need balance.
Just even knowing about this or paying attention to this, Liz, it's been a game changer for me. And I think it's essential for anyone that's listening to this podcast and pursuing something that they're passionate about. And I hope the listeners understand it's about staying connected to the joy, not the pressure of it.
George B. Thomas (38:34.08)
It's okay to be passionate, we're not just passionate, but we have to be present. We have to be grounded. We have to be able to enjoy the journey that we're all on.
Liz, I'm super curious. What are your thoughts here?
Liz Moorehead (38:55.502)
You know, I have to also think about this from a leadership or a collaboration perspective. Because what struck me when I just, when I found this in my research is how it resembles anything that becomes an addiction, right? The moment it becomes disruptive to the rest of your life, your relationships, it makes you make choices that are not healthy for you. You have a problem.
George B. Thomas (39:20.886)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (39:25.444)
It is, it can become, can present like an addiction. But the reason why I say I wanna talk about the collaboration and leadership piece of it is that I've seen situations and I've been the creator circumstances where your obsessive passion makes you judge others as not being passionate enough. Where.
Well, I'm sitting here spending all of this time and all of my weekends doing these things, and I'm working with people who are keeping more standard hours and they can't keep up with me and that's their problem. Right? And I've seen that happen in work situations and it becomes toxic because what is happening is as a leader, you are not acting with a level of self-awareness.
George B. Thomas (40:19.102)
You
Liz Moorehead (40:20.204)
and you are looking at others going, they're just not keeping up. Well, they're just not up at my level. They should rise to meet me where I am. Instead of asking yourself, am I setting the right expectations? Am I actually even operating in a way that is healthy, that is harmonious? know, it's...
George B. Thomas (40:26.59)
Mmm.
Liz Moorehead (40:41.452)
That's where this gets really truly important because I know a lot of people who are listening to this, this isn't just about growth mindset and growth as a person and an individual. I'm sure some of you listening either are in leadership positions or have aspirations of one day being in a leadership position. And when you have that kind of visionary quality, you are probably gonna have more days or weekends where you push harder than others. But that expectation that if others are not
sacrificing in a similar way means they are less passionate, less committed, less driven and fueled by their own purpose toward your vision or your mission. That's when we start reaching a level of toxicity that can be catastrophic because people will either have to kill themselves metaphorically in order to get to your level, thus corrupting the harmony in their own lives, right? Because if we are operating at a level of passion,
George B. Thomas (41:35.666)
Yeah
Liz Moorehead (41:39.064)
that is creating disharmony in our lives, whether that's through our health, through our relationship, creating mountains of work that nobody could possibly go through, right? You are then asking those people to rise to their level and then you are impacting them in their communities. It is impacting their relationships, their health, and then also probably their self-esteem. Well, I'm just never gonna be able to do enough. I just lack the passion. So I always like to think of it in that.
context, you know, because all of the passion can be such a powerful thing. It can help us move mountains. And that is what we are meant to do, right? We are here to move mountains, whether that's a little mountain, a medium mountain, a giant mountain, doesn't really matter, right? But when I think about passion, it is most powerful when it's used as a tool of what you were talking about earlier, George. That's why I love that you brought up collaboration.
Right? That's passion is a beautiful thing that can be such an incredible unifying force. But if you don't have a handle on your own behavior, what are you actually fostering? And I say this from experience. I say this as the person who did that. You know, I learned that lesson the hard way where I was not, this was a long time ago in a previous life as a leader. And I had a very
destructive vision of what it meant to be passionate, what it meant to show commitment to a cause or to your work or to a purpose. And it wasn't right for other people.
George B. Thomas (43:23.322)
you
Liz Moorehead (43:23.374)
So those are my thoughts.
George B. Thomas (43:25.984)
Yeah, my brain is going 100 miles an hour. I'm doing good, but it's interesting because I'm listening to you talk in multiple layers of my life are colliding because one of the things that, you know, I do another podcast, Go Figure, called Wake Up with AI, because I am passionate about AI and we are collaborating with AI to create some things that we create.
Liz Moorehead (43:29.408)
Yeah, how are you doing over there?
George B. Thomas (43:57.142)
I'm sitting here listening to you talk and I'm like, wow, just because I can create things faster doesn't necessarily mean I need to deliver them to the people at the rate that I created them because maybe I should have some sort of balance. A reservoir or a dam comes into mind where it's like, sure, you could have this reservoir or dam of
creations and ideas, but knowing there's a human on the other side of this passion and this expedited creation process, maybe you just drip out a little bit here and there so that they don't feel buried, so that they don't start to think, how am I going to keep up? So they, and you even mentioned the word of like, they start to feel bad about themselves and internalize like self-esteem.
And so there's just a lot where I'm like, okay, leaders who are trying to be passionate and create things and get into this world of leveraging AI to streamline their processes. There's a conversation in the future that I feel like I'm going to want to have around balance and dams or reservoirs and like the human output versus the what you're anyway.
Not why we're here, but that's where my brain's going.
Liz Moorehead (45:27.51)
No, but that's good. mean, these are the conversations we need to be having with ourselves about, you know, what is the role that passion plays in our lives and what are the unintentional expectations we set around us? Because this can happen in our personal lives too. We assume every, like, we can have a shared vision of what we all want to achieve and have very different ideas around our internalized purpose or passion it will take for us to get there and the role that we individually play in getting us there. So that's why passion is such a fascinating thing because it is truly self-defined.
George B. Thomas (45:40.738)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (45:52.321)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (45:57.784)
So I alluded to this earlier, but I want to get into our next question. You many people assume that we talked about the assumption that passion is just this one great discovery and one day you're going to wake up and go, man, I know what I'm doing there. Here we are. But there's also this assumption that when people are truly passionate about their work, they're never going to feel stress or burned out. But studies show that even passionate workers experience frequent burnout and stress. So I'd be curious why you think passion alone isn't enough to prevent burnout.
And how can someone balance that intense drive with the need for rest and boundaries? Because you know, you and I are both, professors at rest and boundaries.
George B. Thomas (46:39.79)
I mean, I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't know.
Liz Moorehead (46:39.876)
I'm sorry to laugh, but like, come on. This may be a blind leading the blind situation. I'm unclear.
George B. Thomas (46:47.49)
Yeah, so so Liz first of all, that's it's a great question I Think first of all, it's one of the biggest misconceptions about passion, right? You're right a lot of people assume that if you're not truly passionate about something it could like If you are It's gonna carry you through everything get you through anything
If you are truly passionate like You're gonna be able to do anything without feeling stressed or drained or burned out But I don't I don't think you know passion Passion alone doesn't make us immune to burnout if that was the case. I'd never burn out and trust me. I've I've burned out in big
Red hot flames before in fact sometimes if we're not careful Passion it can actually lead us straight into burnout and so Here's the thing when you're really passionate. You're often so invested in the thing that you push harder You give more of yourself and and you want to see the work succeed
the idea succeed, the thing, so much that it becomes like a no matter what scenario. And while that's amazing that you want to succeed and you want it to be great, it also means that you're more likely to stretch yourself too thin. To keep going even when your energy
AKA your health is running low.
George B. Thomas (48:47.016)
Any of you listeners out there, if you're wondering, because I don't want you to get caught in a wondering loop. This topic that we're covering this question, the reason Liz giggled and I was like, yeah, is because I've got the t-shirt, the hat, the shoes, and I've worn holes through all of them. Like I.
Liz Moorehead (49:05.731)
Haha
George B. Thomas (49:14.942)
I can go back and look at my past and be like, whew, my goodness. Passion can keep you in the game.
It's fine. But what it doesn't do, it doesn't replace the need for rest, the need for recovery, the need for balance. Hashtag health, ladies and gentlemen, physical and mental. I think burnout happens when we start relying on passion alone to keep us going and ignoring the signals that our body and our mind send us. just we flat out like, nope, don't care. Don't want to hear it. I don't see it.
Let's keep going. And when we don't build in those boundaries, which
hopefully if there's anything that you take away from this podcast is that we need to set up our own boundaries, not just boundaries of others, but when you build those boundaries, the passion can start to feel like pressure if you don't build them. And so we need to build those boundaries. Listen, that's when the joy and the excitement can fade, which by the way, if we talk about purpose as
or passion as energy, the excitement, the joy, if it's fading, what does that do? It leaves us feeling exhausted. I've had times in my life where it's even made me feel resentful towards the very thing that I once loved. Maybe I'm the only one.
George B. Thomas (50:54.004)
So how do we? Yeah, so I didn't think I was. Yeah, yeah, I didn't think I was. So how do we balance that drive with the need for rest? Right. For me, it starts with setting again, intentional boundaries, understanding that passion needs structure. Ladies and gentlemen, please write that down. Passion needs structure to thrive. I found that scheduling breaks. Trying to prioritize downtime.
Liz Moorehead (50:54.378)
No. No.
George B. Thomas (51:24.148)
And even setting hard no work times are critical. Now make no mistake, even though I said critical, I still struggle to do these things that I just mentioned sometimes. But at least I have the realization, at least I'm paying attention, at least I'm trying to do these things. And it's, it's about keeping an eye on our energy. It's about
being honest about when we're feeling drained, and giving ourself permission to step back without guilt.
I hope all the listeners heard that last part. With. Out. Guilt. Another important part is to remember that rest fuels that passion that we so want to have and have it be part of the purpose that we're trying to play out. So many times we think that rest takes us away from the thing.
But rest doesn't take us away from what we love. It actually helps us bring our best energy and creativity to it when we're doing it. So if you're passionate about something, recognize that taking care of yourself is part of keeping that passion alive. And if you have a hard time with that, go listen to the self.
George B. Thomas (52:52.898)
Just take care of yourself. Just take care of yourself. Yeah, self care. Just... You've got to take care of yourself along the way. Listen, passion is powerful. But it is not limitless. And I don't know if you realize this or not, but either are you.
Liz Moorehead (52:53.486)
care. Self care.
George B. Thomas (53:16.948)
See, when we learn, and I'm preaching to myself by the way, when we learn to balance our drive with self-care, that's when we can truly sustain our passion for the long run.
and Liz.
George B. Thomas (53:34.71)
This is an amazing episode. I can't wait to talk about persistence.
But I have to ask, I know I'm gonna ask you your one thing from this episode, because by the way, we've gone places that I didn't even think or know that we would go. But before I ask your one thing, is there anything that is coming to mind or that you wanna share before I go into that?
Liz Moorehead (54:01.358)
We equate passion with fire. Fire, when it's a controlled burn, provides warmth, provides safety, provides illumination if we really want to dial into the metaphor. Unchecked fire is catastrophic.
George B. Thomas (54:08.778)
Yeah. Destructive. Yeah. Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (54:21.62)
not just for yourself, but for everybody around you.
and then it can turn on you, right? That's why I started laughing when you said, I don't know if I'm the only one who ever started to turn on their passion. I'm like, I also have had desires to kill the baby. Like I've been there. I know exactly what that feels like where you just come to loathe the thing that used to bring you joy. Like, and I've joked about, you know, kind of more.
George B. Thomas (54:40.386)
Mmm.
George B. Thomas (54:48.545)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (54:53.418)
humorous versions of this. It's like, this is my new food that I will hyper fixate on for a month and eat it constantly until I can't eat it anymore and then I hate it then I never want to see it again. And just, it's the life version of that. I think we tend to boop ourselves on the nose with a newspaper. If we are not living up to some sort of idealized expectation of what it means to live with purpose, what it means to live with passion.
George B. Thomas (55:05.476)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (55:22.742)
If we get tired, we feel bad. If we aren't showing up the way we think we are supposed to, we feel bad, right? And so what happens is we start to negatively talk to ourselves. Well, maybe this isn't what I'm meant to be doing. Well, if I'm feeling stressed or burned out, then, you know, other people around me, they're not stressed or burned out. Or maybe I'm working with someone where like there is that expectation of being up there somewhere. Maybe I'm just not enough. Maybe I don't want it badly enough.
George B. Thomas (55:24.742)
Hmm
Liz Moorehead (55:53.4)
That's not true. Too much of anything is just that. Too much. It's about balance. It's about moderation. You are not a machine. No one is a machine. No one can keep going all the time. One of the things that I had to learn is that the work that I do is very brain intensive. I don't have a lot of aspects of my job where it's like,
George B. Thomas (56:15.738)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (56:19.936)
I can click around or do things or like, don't really have any kind of like autopilot tasks I do with my job. And I used to get frustrated myself, like if I couldn't get creative on demand. And the reality is if I'm not resting or if I'm not creating the containers of time I need to, to actually be creative, I just won't be able to perform. I just won't be able to do it. I've had to learn to walk away when I do not want to walk away. I've had to learn that like I cannot.
George B. Thomas (56:43.86)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (56:49.316)
force certain things out of myself. And that's again because guys we are not machines. We are human beings. We are human beings living a human experience doing our best. You are not going to knock it out of the park every single day. You are not a machine. You actually need to sleep. Your version of living your passion does not have to look like everybody else's version of living their passion. Mostly because
you are showing up with different gifts that may require different things of you. That's why I actually have, you'd be so proud. I actually have a morning routine now, George. You know this, cause I've started, you've been seeing me, I'm up, I'm earlier, I'm around, I'm already on my second cup of coffee. But that's because I learned in order to be my most creative self during the day, I had to move my physical activity to the morning. I had to make my mornings sacred and quiet and completely uninterrupted. Because if I was,
George B. Thomas (57:28.688)
All right.
George B. Thomas (57:34.717)
Nice. Yep.
Liz Moorehead (57:47.908)
Not necessarily sleeping up until the last minute, but if I was putting stuff till later in the day, if I was just trying to immediately sit down and get to work, I'd nothing. Nothing was coming out. So sometimes it's about not knowing yourself and knowing what it really takes for you to be a peak performer. And other times, just give yourself an effing break. Come on.
George B. Thomas (58:06.226)
Yeah. So, we've covered a lot of ground today about this lovely passion topic. What's your one thing that you hope the audience takes away?
Liz Moorehead (58:11.096)
We have.
Liz Moorehead (58:21.316)
Life isn't a fortune cookie, guys. Go out, live this world, live your life, discover your passions, allow them to evolve over time. This isn't some hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, what is 42 the ultimate, the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. That's not what this is. Go out, live your life, pay attention to your body and how it responds to things around you.
George B. Thomas (58:35.266)
Liz Moorehead (58:49.986)
When you are doing your work, when do you feel like you are in flow? When do you feel excited? Pay attention to that. Then understand that as humans, we grow, we change, we evolve. The most important thing you can do is approach your life with curiosity and a sense of discovery. And stop penalizing yourself like you're doing something wrong because it wasn't this big explosion aha moment. Sometimes you'll be doing things for ages and then go, crap.
George B. Thomas (59:15.52)
Hmm.
George B. Thomas (59:19.513)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (59:19.524)
This is my thing. Or it'll take somebody else going, hey, you're really good at that. Because when you're in flow, what is easy to you is magic to everybody else. So you might not even notice.
George, what about you? What's the one thing you want people to take away from this episode today? Because you're right, we have covered a lot.
George B. Thomas (59:41.856)
Yeah. I'll say this. If you want, and you do by the way, but if you want your passion to truly last, don't just pour everything into it.
Learn to step back and refuel along the way. Passion, it isn't about going full throttle 24-7.
That's the realization that I had to come to, by the way, as we were working through this, and I was thinking about historically.
George B. Thomas (01:00:20.762)
Rest isn't the opposite of passion. It's the fuel that keeps the fire burning strong. So listeners, this is what I'm gonna ask you to do when it comes to passion and aligning it with purpose. And it's really gonna lean into what we're gonna talk about in the future, which is persistence. Listeners, I need you to take breaks.
I need you to set boundaries. And I need you to remember that stepping back is part of moving forward. Especially on the journey to a life beyond your default.