Liz Moorehead
Episode Transcript
Liz Moorehead (00:01.47)
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your host, Liz Moorhead, and as always, I'm joined by the one, the only George B. Thomas, who, thank you, George, for the first time in two or three episodes. You haven't said something that absolutely terrified me in terms of our topic for today. You haven't threatened me. I know, you haven't threatened me. You haven't made some sort of, well, you'll see comment. So just, no.
George B. Thomas (00:16.505)
I knew I was forgetting something.
George B. Thomas (00:24.16)
Well, I mean I could, but I won't. I'm not brave enough to actually do that this week. You like that?
Liz Moorehead (00:31.198)
I see what you did there. I see what you did there because we are talking about bravery this week. We're talking about what it looks and feels like versus what we actually, what it actually looks and feels like, right? That dissonance between what we're told what it is versus what it actually is. But before that curiosity, we just came out of a holiday weekend. What are your highlights and lowlights, bud?
George B. Thomas (00:50.936)
We did. The low light is I suck at I suck at my brain sometimes because I want to feel guilty for not doing work on a long weekend. Just hang on. Let me finish because because like I I was heading into the weekend and I was like
Liz Moorehead (01:12.597)
It was a weekend.
George B. Thomas (01:20.974)
the wife's gone. The girls are gone. I've got an extra day. I have three days with no meetings. Like imagine all the work that I could get done.
And then I was like, or I could just take three days off and actually become a potato. And so I became I did do some like internal work, like meaning meaning like meaning like sidekick strategies beyond your default George B. Thomas, like because there's things that we're prepping for that are coming to the masses. But but client work kind of fell to the side from like
Liz Moorehead (01:52.943)
Some, some.
George B. Thomas (02:09.26)
Watching the dogs, because again, people were gone. Binge watching Umbrella Academy, all four seasons, by the way. Super interesting thoughts around that whole show, but not why we're here. And then also, I watched, finally, I had been wanting to watch it. I watched the Gran Turismo, like the kid who was like an online racer who became a real racer movie. Anyway.
So I did have some time to relax that I, that's the highlight by the way. It was quiet and relaxing and just, but the low light is I woke up every morning of the weekend and this morning of, this is Tuesday when we're recording this instead of typically Monday, going, man dude, did you screw up? No, you didn't screw up. Did you screw up? Anyway, so my highlights and my low lights are around my.
a mental unpacking of when to just take a break and when to actually work more.
Liz Moorehead (03:12.06)
Yeah, because what's interesting about that mental narrative that you just talked about is that you could go one of two ways. You could say that friction in my head is telling me I should have done work or that friction in my head is a symptom of me not knowing when to relax. Also, I opened up my slack this morning. I feel like I'm very excited to dig into all the stuff you left me. Don't be. First of all, number one, lie.
George B. Thomas (03:21.25)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (03:25.664)
Yep. Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's more number two.
George B. Thomas (03:35.128)
Sorry. Sorry.
Liz Moorehead (03:40.372)
The lie detector test determined that was a lie. That's a lie. No, but also, I love that kind of stuff. Usually what I do is like when you leave me a bunch of videos, I'll just queue them up while I'm working in the morning and it helps me like get me re -inspired for the week. So I like this stuff because you and I are kind of like on off schedules. You'll get stuff from me in the night times or like really rant.
George B. Thomas (03:40.578)
I'm not. Yeah, sorry, not sorry. Yeah, pretty much. There was a lot.
George B. Thomas (03:58.285)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:06.924)
Yeah, I'm sleeping.
Liz Moorehead (04:09.0)
Yeah, you're sleeping and that's when Liz is up in her little cave of wonders doing her random ish, right? And then you are my little weekend warrior. Now, what was interesting is for me is my little, my little highlights and lowlights. We were talking about this before we hopped on. I actually was forced into taking meaningful time off this weekend. I was forced. Yes and no. Because, well, here's the thing.
George B. Thomas (04:15.192)
Yeah.
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:30.965)
Isn't the universe wonderful?
Liz Moorehead (04:39.942)
It's a less extreme version of what we had a conversation about of like, George had a plan until he didn't. You know, I I've realized I've criminalized off time. I've thought about taking vacations and then I don't take them. Or if I do take, or I do take them and I still work. No, I know, I know. No, but like, I will,
George B. Thomas (04:47.247)
yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:56.556)
You have to take vacation.
George B. Thomas (05:01.186)
Just make sure it's after inbound. Yeah, okay, all right.
Liz Moorehead (05:09.694)
take vacations and still work. I will take vacations and still say, hey, I'm available. And then finally, this past Friday, there was a massive area internet outage where I was. I was able to still take some calls, which was good, but I definitely maxed out my hotspot. And I said, you know, I'm gonna check things out over the weekend, still couldn't do it. And honestly, I did not realize how burned out I was.
George B. Thomas (05:15.798)
Nah.
George B. Thomas (05:21.966)
sweet.
Liz Moorehead (05:35.946)
Because I think sometimes when we think about burnout, we think about burnout from the perspective of I'm exhausted, I hate what I'm doing, da da da da da. Like I'm just tired of the problem is I actually really love what we do and I'm really inspired by what we do and my brain is constantly thinking about it. And it really reminded me, know, when I finally was forced to disconnect, I didn't realize how exhausted I was. I slept for 10 hours one night.
George B. Thomas (05:39.022)
Yeah.
that's yeah, I've had I've had days like that where all of a I'll go to sleep and be like, am I ever waking up? And I do. What's interesting, Liz, is there's there's a narrative that
Liz Moorehead (06:05.105)
Yeah, I
Liz Moorehead (06:11.368)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (06:20.044)
Sorry, Seth, can edit that pause out. sneeze. There's a narrative that I think we need to pull at at some point because a conversation around how to diagnose burnout when you love what you do is a real thing. a real, cause that's the thing. I don't, I don't ever really correlate it to then I'm burnt out.
Liz Moorehead (06:23.466)
Hahaha
Liz Moorehead (06:38.301)
Yes.
George B. Thomas (06:49.614)
I would say I'm tired, but what's the dang difference? Like we should have an episode in the future where we dive into diagnosing burnt out and being tired in a world where you love everything that you do.
Liz Moorehead (07:06.334)
Well, the other thing too is that do you, should you wait until you're burned out in order to actually take some rest? And that was the thing I was dealing with this whole feeling of just, I'm guilt. I feel guilty. I feel tired. It's like, Liz, you've been busted your ass. You have been producing you like no one is questioning whether or not you're showing up. So maybe just like take a beat and it worked out beautifully.
George B. Thomas (07:10.742)
Probably not.
George B. Thomas (07:21.602)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (07:26.851)
Yeah.
You know, you know what? Yeah, Liz, you should be brave enough to take a vacation. You should be brave enough to like take time for some. what is that called? Self care. yeah. I didn't do it at the beginning, but I just did it in the episode. mean, since the beginning, when you said you didn't do anything to mess with me this morning, like.
Liz Moorehead (07:37.026)
ha ha ha ha ha.
Liz Moorehead (07:47.699)
How long have you been waiting to do that? How long have you been waiting to do that?
Liz Moorehead (07:56.412)
I know, thanks, Bud, I really appreciated that. But so it was weird, it was a low light at first that then became a highlight. And it made me realize, know, Liz, if you wanna make sure there's no divine intervention about whether or not you take time off and take some naps and some rest and some self -care time, maybe you need to start planning that in. But it ended up being a lot of fun, you know, to put the phone down, to not be always connected.
George B. Thomas (08:15.309)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (08:23.034)
Liz Moorehead (08:24.71)
And I'm excited because this week ends up being really perfect because I have so much deep work planned. I have basically no plans for this. I'm just very, very excited to get back into it. And I feel very reinvigorated. The other highlight I will say, though, is I made my Italian wedding soup this weekend for friends and just the healing power of that soup, the healing.
George B. Thomas (08:47.662)
I think we've said this on this podcast before, but I love me some good wedding soup, like.
Liz Moorehead (08:52.772)
it's the best. It is the best. And what's funny is my friend who I was with, I had given her the recipe before and she says, Liz, I don't understand whenever you make it, it's different. And I said, yes, because there's there are two things that I do that I never put in the recipe because it's Mm hmm.
George B. Thomas (09:11.607)
see now, that's not fair. That's, that's, okay, all right.
Liz Moorehead (09:13.738)
I'm not allowed to, it's a family recipe secret. It's kinda like the 11 herbs and spices. I'll give you 10.
George B. Thomas (09:20.214)
yeah, which by the way, have you ever looked at KFC's like, I think it's their Twitter account because it's like who they follow. It's like somebody named Herb or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leaven herbs and spices. Yeah, it's crazy. Anyway, not why we're here, but my brain went to like that as soon as you said, yeah.
Liz Moorehead (09:26.513)
Mm -mm.
Liz Moorehead (09:32.073)
the 11, they follow 11 herbs and spices. Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (09:40.062)
That's amazing. And I said, yes, there are one or two things that I do that do not go in the recipe. And then at some point I will tell somebody what those one or two things are.
George B. Thomas (09:43.31)
This is the world we live in.
George B. Thomas (09:52.98)
I hope I'm in the room when that happens, because...
Liz Moorehead (09:53.34)
as is tradition. It's stupidly simple, but it makes a huge difference. That's all I could say.
George B. Thomas (09:59.488)
It's like my buddy who the other day we went over and he made chili, which by the way, there was a whole conversation of like who makes chili for a pool party, but he made it. It was, it was odd, but, here's what got it even more odd is like the chili was amazing, but there was like questions about the chili.
Liz Moorehead (10:04.157)
Mm
Liz Moorehead (10:11.112)
That is an oddly specific thing. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (10:25.824)
And so finally, my buddy was like, well, do you taste the cinnamon in it? And we're like, hit the brakes. You put cinnamon in your chili, to which he did. And then my one buddy goes, but it it tastes like almost like barbecue chili, which but but so it's not that hot, spicy, like put you on your back, sweat your face off because it's a pool party. Well, here he had put not sponsored, by the way.
Liz Moorehead (10:37.332)
yeah!
George B. Thomas (10:54.956)
I think it's baby rays or whatever, like sweet baby rays in the... So barbecue sauce and cinnamon in the chili, which was very hearty and was like the best thing to eat at the pool party. Anyway, maybe that was the highlight of the week for me. I don't know.
Liz Moorehead (10:56.989)
Yeah, sweet, baby race.
Liz Moorehead (11:14.398)
I don't know. Are we ready to get brave?
George B. Thomas (11:18.092)
Let's get brave.
Liz Moorehead (11:20.019)
So we already teased.
But I'm gonna keep this simple, guys. I think we need to have a structured conversation today around what we believe bravery to be and what it actually is. What we believe we should feel like when we are quote unquote within the act of being brave and what it actually feels like, which is often dry heaving. But that's really what I wanna talk about today, George. And I actually wanna go ahead and dive right into this conversation and ask you.
How you think our cultural perception of bravery affects how we act? And are there any misconceptions about what it means to be brave out there?
George B. Thomas (12:02.229)
Well, I think so.
It's funny because as soon as I read this question for some reason the word cultural stood out and I immediately was like hmm What's the Bible say about bravery and I don't know why when you like our culture like I went to the other side but so like I did some digging and and if you look at bravery in the Bible, it's like, okay
Where does bravery come from? Trusting in God's strength and protection in your life, and there's, you know, Joshua and Psalms and all sorts of places where you can find this information. In the Bible, it talks about bravery from a standpoint of courage to stand up for righteousness, for doing the right thing, being in the right places. Bravery is like this thing you have because you're not worried about being persecuted.
Actually, it's maybe even a thing that you lean into because of the bravery that you have. When the Bible talks about bravery, it's about overcoming fear and anxiety in your life. When it talks about bravery, it talks about leadership and service, which, know, me, Liz, I was immediately nerding out like, yep, there's some leadership stuff from the Bible. Let's go. And so if we think about just
Liz Moorehead (13:22.021)
Shocking.
George B. Thomas (13:26.018)
this idea of biblical bravery, it's not about, and you're gonna hear this a couple times as we kind of move forward, it's not about this absence of fear, because so many times it's like this fear conversation and this bravery conversation get kind of like convoluted or stirred up together. But for conflated, there you go, that's a good, I'm gonna use that in Scrabble at some point in time.
Liz Moorehead (13:47.529)
The word is conflated.
George B. Thomas (13:53.71)
But it's this presence of like faith and trust in God's guidance and strength that allows you as a human to step out and stand firm in the face of adversity, acting according to like core values, will of God, regardless of like the personal risk that you might face. like, and I wanted to unpack that piece because I feel like
It's completely different than what, when you say cultural perspective. And so if I just, from that, go and answer your question, I think our culture has definitely shaped how we think about bravery. And Liz, I would say it's maybe not always in the best way.
When we think about bravery, we often picture these huge dramatic moments. Like, I don't know, a hero running into a burning building or somebody standing up to a villain or a bad, I'm using air quotes if you can't see this if you're listening, a bad human, right? A villain, a bad actor.
When we think about bravery, we probably go to like our favorite movie, our favorite story. If we think about bravery, we go into the history books. Then we're actually, you know, thinking about this, how it has to be this big, bold, visible thing. Visible. Well, they were brave because we could see it happening.
And Liz, because of this, think many people think that if they're not doing something epic, I should do that. Like if they're not doing something epic, they're not being brave. And this is simply not reality. You see, this type of thinking, this epic, big, bold has to be seen. I think that it creates
Liz Moorehead (15:54.911)
my god.
George B. Thomas (16:12.736)
some big misconceptions. One of the most common ones is that Liz bravery means having no fear. And again, I kind of alluded to this at the beginning, but we look at brave people and think, man, they must be fearless. Which, by the way, there used to be like back in the, I think it was 80s or 90s where it was like a brand of like around this whole idea of like no fear.
Right. don't know if any of the listeners as old as me to remember no fear, but it was this like almost call to like, well, not have fear. But again, that's not all true at all. Like, bravery isn't about not being scared. Bravery is. It's about feeling that fear, feeling it.
and still moving forward anyway. And so if we only think of bravery as this like fearlessness, we end up feeling like we're not brave because, well, we still feel afraid. And I know like you, this is kind of hard to unpack, which is why I'm glad that we're having this conversation of like, because...
Because if you don't feel like you can be something because you're thinking of something else, then it's very hard to step out and be and do that thing. But the truth is, fear is actually part of being brave. So listen, I'm going to stop there. have another misconception that I want to talk about, but I'm going to stop there because I want to get your thoughts on that.
Liz Moorehead (18:07.366)
I agree with a lot of what you said. I think there is a perception of what we believe bravery to be when we personally and internally are at our most fearful, right? It is a story that we tell ourselves that unfortunately makes us feel as if we are not brave, right? But it's exactly what you said. We believe to be brave is to be without fear. No.
George B. Thomas (18:32.398)
You
Liz Moorehead (18:34.932)
To be brave often feels like vomiting. To be brave often feels like, okay, okay, I'm doing it scared. I'm doing it anyway, right? But I think the other thing we have to remember is that we are all very different. And so what we are afraid of, what can feel hard to us may not feel hard to somebody else.
But what may feel easy to you may be hard to somebody else. You may need to tap into bravery at times when your neighbor does not need to tap into bravery. But when we look at them and we see them doing something quote unquote without fear, well maybe that's because that's just a thing they aren't afraid of, but that doesn't mean they aren't afraid of other things. I think it's an interesting thought loop that we get caught in.
George B. Thomas (19:01.614)
You
Liz Moorehead (19:27.774)
because we are trying to find a way to make ourselves feel as if we are lacking. We are telling ourselves a story about why we can't do something. And when we look at somebody else and go, but they're brave, honestly, that internal monologue we have has nothing to do with them. We are looking outside ourselves to have a conversation about something that should be completely internal.
George B. Thomas (19:30.894)
okay. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that you bring up this could be internal. I love that you like...
the vision or seeing of the thing, because that leads me into the other misconception, is that bravery is always something that's loud and obvious, which is not the truth. In reality, some of the bravest things we do are very quiet and very personal. Like, Liz, I started to break down, like, things that could be considered very brave.
Liz Moorehead (20:10.814)
Mm -hmm.
George B. Thomas (20:31.072)
Me and you, by the way. So some examples of my bravery that we've talked about on this podcast. Embracing my full identity. Takes bravery. If you're going to embrace your full identity, you will need to be quietly and personally brave to get past that.
Liz Moorehead (20:34.371)
boy.
George B. Thomas (20:57.826)
this idea of integrating all aspects of your personality, your history for the good, even the rough parts, like it takes bravery. Challenging the default mindset, right? Like starting this podcast and advocating for living a life beyond your default, to hit record and just show up on a daily basis or weekly basis.
quiet and very personal bravery. Facing fear head on and reframing how I even think about fear to intersect with this conversation of, and by the way, you can go listen to historical episodes where we talk about fear and I talk about false evidence appearing real and transforming fear into excitement.
to better handle challenging situations. Bravery.
being vulnerable in public.
self -belief, high school dropout, one room log cabin, almost dying three times. Putting all that out into the world.
George B. Thomas (22:24.494)
Bravery. Liz, you on the podcast have been very brave, letting go of energetic ghosts, Identifying and releasing relationships and situations that drain your energy, facing the discomfort of potential loss in your life. Bravery. Embracing this idea of authentic conversations
The fact that most people don't wanna, but you're encouraging deep and sometimes challenging discussions, right? Listen, George, when you're gonna show up as a whole human, right? And I hear you telling stories of like these conversations with other people in your life. Navigating
this journey each week, the uncertainty of the personal growth that will or will not come from the investment of time. But it takes bravery to be intentional about where your energy goes and stepping into this beyond your default, which many times can feel like the unknown.
and it's gonna change these phases that you go through, that takes courage, that takes bravery. So it's setting boundaries and saying no sometimes to something that doesn't feel right or admitting to others that we need help, like these acts of bravery.
Ladies and gentlemen, they don't always get an applause. They don't always get attention. But they're incredibly courageous because they come from these places of deep honesty and authenticity. And again, I'm sure if we could get you on the mic, you would have your own list of things that you could be like,
George B. Thomas (24:48.45)
Well, if I look at it that way...
George B. Thomas (24:54.08)
I'm pretty dang brave.
So Liz, I'm curious about your thoughts. Like, you brought up culture. So have you seen these cultural ideas shape what people in your circles, or you yourself, think about bravery and what it is?
Liz Moorehead (25:16.1)
Yeah, mean, especially the funny thing is, is that I don't think about it too much when I don't have a personal circumstance in my life where I need to or I perceive a need to be brave. Right. When I'm not stressed about something, I tend not to be terribly worried about the whole bravery quandary. It's just not a hypothetical thought experiment I'm engaging in. But I think maybe this is just me. Maybe others can relate to this. But I know if there's something in the back of my mind
that is lingering that I'm not addressing, or I know it's something where quote unquote, I need to be brave, I'll start seeing reminders everywhere of what I believe bravery is. And depending on my headspace and my mindset, I will either be looking for examples of what I should do or subconsciously seeking out evidence that I am not brave. Or there's something different.
George B. Thomas (26:08.96)
yeah.
Liz Moorehead (26:12.552)
Right, so that was what I was getting to before, right? Like let's pretend for a moment that you have a fear of dogs, but your friend doesn't, okay? You look at your friend and they just seem so brave. They're not brave, they just don't have a built -in baked -in fear of dogs. Right, and so you just start drawing these comparisons. But let's take it to a work thing.
George B. Thomas (26:32.396)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (26:38.887)
Right? Like, let's say you're someone who wants to get into public speaking and you have a friend who is a public speaker and they're naturally very good at it. Yeah. For that, for them, they may say, wow, they're so brave to go on stage. and they're also just so good at it. What's interesting is whenever I find myself drawing those comparisons, particularly around bravery, if I'm being brutally honest with myself, I'm not just sitting there comparing whether or not they are brave. I'm also comparing talent.
George B. Thomas (26:45.546)
Not scary at all. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (26:54.157)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (27:00.462)
Hmm
Liz Moorehead (27:07.538)
I'm comparing other things. So this is where we have to be very mindful of the thoughts that we're having in those moments, right? We naturally and subconsciously seek out evidence of the story we want to believe and reinforce. And sometimes bravery is a part of that equation, right? We are not brave enough, but we are not only not brave enough, we are not talented enough, so why bother? We are not only not brave enough, we are...
not experienced enough, so why bother? We are not only not brave enough, we are more likely to get rejected than whomever we are projecting this story upon, right? Like exactly. often bravery is a Trojan horse for us to kind of shove a lot of our own other insecurities in there. It's usually hiding something a lot deeper.
George B. Thomas (27:45.8)
Downward spiral.
George B. Thomas (28:02.044)
It's funny, you're breaking my brain. Not to interrupt you, I do apologize. But listening to you do that immediately, and I don't know why, but for some reason my brain goes, man, if that's the game the listeners play, like inject some.
Liz Moorehead (28:05.446)
Go for it.
George B. Thomas (28:18.458)
I am statements into your life like yesterday. I am powerful. I am educated. I am brave. Whatever you usually let your negative Nancy or, you know, negative Norman brain do.
Find the polar opposite of that and like, I am statements. I sometimes will fall asleep. If I'm, like you know, I'm struggling. By the way, not that you can come into my bedroom when I'm sleeping listeners, but if you could, yeah, if you could, you, you,
Liz Moorehead (28:45.386)
yeah, absolutely.
Liz Moorehead (28:57.537)
well, thank you for setting that boundary. Otherwise, I would have just been coming right in. Absolutely.
George B. Thomas (29:04.554)
You know that I'm struggling if it's a night where I fall asleep to I am statements. Because I am literally re -energizing, rejuvenating myself even when I'm trying, like, just let it drip into my brain, Lord. Please, because I need, I need a little more juice.
to make it through the next couple days or the next couple weeks or I've been struggling with who I am and why you have me on this dang gone planet, I'll be going to sleep with I am statements.
Liz Moorehead (29:42.281)
Well, let's get into what bravery actually is. George, from your perspective, what is bravery really?
George B. Thomas (29:48.908)
Yeah, man. So full circle, full circle ish right here. Bravery is choosing to be true to yourself.
Liz Moorehead (29:52.711)
Real softball for ya.
George B. Thomas (30:07.314)
even when it's scary or uncomfortable. It's about making decisions, big, small, life, whatever, that align with who you really are, or maybe even who you want to become, and more importantly, what you believe in, rather than what's easy or expect
The directions, the two directions that I would ask humans not to follow are the easy street and expected avenue. bravery isn't something you either have, by the way, or don't have. Bravery is something that you practice.
And Liz, during the first part of our conversation, I couldn't help but like think about in my brain, like, I don't know if I'm thinking about bravery as I do the thing, but many times it's a reflective of like, like that took courage, that took bravery. Like, why was I able to easily step into that? Because of the practice, 1 % better each and every day of
leaning into the true self, leaning into comfort in discomfort.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's about taking small steps every day to move you closer to the life you want to live. The precipice of this entire podcast, a transformational journey from being stuck in the pit to being able to celebrate at the peak.
George B. Thomas (32:09.102)
But these small steps get you closer to this life that you want to live, even when those steps feel uncertain, even when it feels like it's a step you can't take.
The truth is, by the way, Liz, you asked me like, what is bravery really? It depends. It's that's a great marketing answer. It depends. But but it's different for everyone. Like it will look different for you than it does for me than it does for almost every single one of the listeners. For some of the listeners, it might mean speaking up in a meeting at work or at home.
when you're usually quiet, because that's just who you are expected to be. For others, it could be ending a relationship that isn't healthy or taking a leap into that new career.
Which sounds really scary. Well, I don't know those people. I don't know if I'm good enough for that job. You only know once you actually dive in. Like, I can't help but think about when, went from working the expected 40 hours a week, insurance, 401k, like all the things to...
How about we just give all that up and go out on our own? Like that sounds amazingly easy and expected. Nope. It's the exact opposite of what would have been easy and expected. like, for one person might not be for another. Like, by the way, I would start another company tomorrow. Cause been there, done it.
George B. Thomas (34:06.306)
where there's people listening to this that are still in a job that they might not want to be in and dream of doing their own thing.
But that would take courage and bravery. And by the way, a little bit of strategy to get the point where you can actually do that. What's important is that you're stepping out of your comfort zone. Because many times I feel like the comfort zone is where we get stuck. And if the comfort zone is keeping you from doing and being what is you, the true you,
then it's not really a comfort zone, it's a frickin' jail.
So here's the real deal holy field.
George B. Thomas (35:00.512)
And if when we can look at bravery in the way that we're talking about right now.
George B. Thomas (35:08.702)
It becomes something that is within everyone's reach. And the reason that I'm bringing that up is because Liz, you even kind of alluded or said like, I'm not brave or I'm not that brave or I don't have the courage. It is in your reach to have that thing. Understand that it's not about the big moments.
Bravery is in the small choices we make every day to be a little bit more honest, to be a little bit more authentic, to be a little bit more aligned with our values, to be a little bit more, well, us.
Liz Moorehead (35:58.973)
So how do you see it as different from fearlessness? Because some of what you talked about here is either absence of fear or not letting fear control you or having a mastery of your fear. But how do you see those two things as being different? And why is that distinction important?
George B. Thomas (36:20.361)
Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's really important. First of all, it's funny because I had to sit and unpack this like from which is why the way why I love this show and I love the time to do this because. Bravery and fearlessness for me often got mixed up into like this. What what where did you use earlier? Convoluted.
Liz Moorehead (36:47.507)
conflated.
George B. Thomas (36:48.28)
conflated. Yeah, like just this thing, right? And so
Fearlessness is when you don't feel any fear at all.
It's like jumping into something without thinking about the risks or what could go wrong. It's just like fearlessness. We're just no fear. We're just gonna do it. Don't care. For some,
Crazy people. Jumping out of a plane, no fear. For some humans, hopping on a roller coaster, no fear. For others, climbing a 30 -foot ladder.
No fear.
George B. Thomas (37:49.058)
This idea of not paying attention to what could happen, the ramifications, being fearless, it sounds nice.
But if not kept in check, it can be a bit reckless because there's no awareness of the danger or the consequences of the thing that you're doing that you have no fear or being fearless around.
George B. Thomas (38:22.988)
FYI listeners, the three things that I listed are the three things that scare me to death. Like scare me crapless, skydiving, roller coasters, and heights.
For me, it's not no fear. It's, God, like fear. But here's the thing. I've climbed a tall ladder and even ridden a roller coaster. Why? Bravery.
George B. Thomas (39:05.006)
Bravery because I wanted to ride the roller coaster with my family. I needed to go fix something for the family. Bravery due to the service or communal reasons to get past the fear. You see, bravery is all about feeling the fear and deciding to move
forward anyway.
It's when you know the risks and you understand what could happen. The roller coaster could go off the tracks and I could die today. I could lean over to the right too far and the ladder would slide down and I'd end in the hospital. But you still choose to act because you believe
in what you're doing. I believe that needs fixed. I believe I need to spend time with my family or whoever it is that you're doing this thing. This is important, by the way, understanding this, because if we think we need to be fearless to be brave,
Liz, we might not ever act.
George B. Thomas (40:29.782)
And the lack of acting is the worst thing that we can do. Imagine if we never created this podcast. Imagine if we never created our own business. Imagine if we never got married. Imagine if we never had kids. Like, I can go through this list of things through my life where in the moment I might not feel like I was being brave.
But because I pushed forward and did the act, I was actually being very brave, very crudest. Listeners, I want you to think about what are the acts that you've done that if you historically look back, you're like, I'm a badass. Like I am. That's where you need to lean into. That's the energy. Like if we don't pay attention to the acts that we've had,
We'd wait forever for the fear to go away and we'd miss out on a lot of the opportunities, the magical moments on the other side of that fear because we are able to activate or engage bravery in our life and lean into those opportunities of growth through the discomfort of this thing. by the way, you might be hanging on a
A string and wondering, but George you only mentioned ladders and roller coasters.
I'm just gonna step out right here and be very brave. Ladies and gentlemen, I don't think I'll ever look at skydiving as an opportunity for growth. But I digress. I'm just, I'm not doing it. But here's thing, being for real, when we see bravery as action in the face of fear, we start to understand that fear,
Liz Moorehead (42:17.245)
That's gonna be a hard pass for me too, dog. So, gonna be honest. No thanks.
George B. Thomas (42:33.996)
And again, you can diagnose what you truly believe and think about fear. Listen to the historical podcast. But you start to understand that fear or the energy is a natural part of life.
George B. Thomas (42:49.718)
Having these moments of fear doesn't mean we're weak or incapable.
punchline, it just means we're freaking human. And being human means we get to decide what to do with that fear. You can let it stop you, or you can use it as a guide towards what really matters in your life.
Liz Moorehead (43:25.257)
So what does it feel like for you, George, when you're actually being brave? What does it feel like for you? What are the actual physical or emotional feelings that you feel?
George B. Thomas (43:37.43)
Yeah, this one's a hard one for me because...
Like, first of all, I think we have to realize I may say how it feels for me and it may be a complete disconnect for the listeners.
Because being brave feels different for everyone. But it does usually come with a mix of emotion. And we've talked about fear, right? What happens when you're in this fear or energy moment of your life? Palms might get sweaty. Your knees might get weak.
You might feel like you have a knot in your stomach.
Which by the way, is it just me or is anybody else thinking about the Eminem song right now? His palms are sweaty, knees are weak, arms are heavy. Like the lose yourself lyrics, by the way. I'm like, OK, I just recited Eminem on the Beyond Your Default podcast. But but but anyway, sweaty palms, weak knees, heart racing. Like these are all signs that you are stepping into something uncertain. Or challenging in your life.
Liz Moorehead (44:35.005)
was literally about to say about mom's spaghetti.
George B. Thomas (45:03.0)
The interesting thing for me, and this is where listeners may be like me, I may be like them, is there's also this thing that happens in fear. In the turning it or activating the bravery, there's this sense of clarity and purpose and even excitement.
Liz, some people have looked at me like I have three heads when I make this certain statement where I'm like, man, I get excited when life gets rough. They're like, what the is wrong with you, dude? And I'm like, I can't wait to see who I'm gonna be on the other side of it.
Because there's this clarity and there's this purpose and there's this excitement for understanding the journey and growth comes through those chaotic moments that induce fear and activate you to be brave.
It's like if you get out of your brain, that like lizard brain area, it's like you know deep down that you're doing something important. Something that is true to who you are, true to who many times you're afraid to show the world.
George B. Thomas (46:41.486)
It's a whole nother podcast. But these magic moments in life are always on the other side of this thing that we call fear and the tool to get past it, to get from here to there. This is exactly what we're talking about, bravery. When you're being brave, first of all, I don't even know if you're like, and I'm being brave right now.
It's, I don't think it works like that. But, but you may have this, and this is me, right? But you may have this. It is a strange mix of anxiety and peace at the same dang time. Like, there's the tension of this stepping into the unknown.
but this sense of liberation because you're doing what feels right.
How many times in your life, listeners, are you making the hard decisions to just do what feels right?
versus what your circle expects.
George B. Thomas (48:07.682)
When you're going through this bravery vortex, many times it can feel like you're breaking free from what's been holding you back.
It can feel like you're actually standing up for yourself in a way that you never have been able to before.
George B. Thomas (48:35.352)
Bravery, I would say it's not comfortable.
Maybe there might be times where it's less uncomfortable, but there is a power in it. A feeling of being fully alive. Being fully aligned.
and being fully activated.
George B. Thomas (49:12.0)
If you do anything from this podcast around bravery, realize that it's around being alive, aligned, and activated in the directions that you need to go. For me, I know that there is a divine inspiration that is putting me on a path. For you, it might be you.
It might be the universe. Like Liz, it might be your dang inner cupcake. That's how it's going to be different for everybody.
I need you to lean into this being alive, being aligned and activated. And think back to a time listeners, when you did something that scared the absolute crap out of you.
But you did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. And why am I getting you to call back to that?
George B. Thomas (50:20.014)
Because you did it once, you can do it again. And when you make it a repeatable action over and over and over again...
it becomes easier. When you reflect back to that time, by the way, scared the crap out of me, did what was right, because it's right. How did that feel like in your body? What was going on through your mind? Because if you can record what was happening in your mind and understand the feeling that was in your body, you can pick it up and diagnose it in the moment.
Liz, you asked me as part of that question, I feel like it was a two part question you asked me, can you share a personal experience of what it felt like?
George B. Thomas (51:14.54)
Liz, the first time I rode a roller coaster, I was scared crapless. The first time I asked a girl out, I felt like I was going to vomit. The first time I rode a horse, by the way, I had felt like I had zero control. The time I started my own business, like I was jumping off a cliff. The time I launched this podcast, like like I was asking others to judge me.
Like, they're -
It's just a part of life. It's a it's a part of making choices. You can't get away from it. Quit looking at Hollywood.
George B. Thomas (52:04.682)
Look internal. Look at your heart, your brain.
George B. Thomas (52:14.102)
It's not something that you don't have, it's something you've been doing. Now just pay attention to it.
Liz Moorehead (52:23.336)
You know, for me, it's similar to what you've discussed and it's also a bit different. I think there are some of the basics that we've talked about. You we've been beating the drum pretty hard that what there's this really great quote. There are a thousand quotes that are basically some version of this. True courage is in facing danger when you are afraid. L. Frank Baum. Courage is res...
George B. Thomas (52:30.198)
I love that.
Liz Moorehead (52:50.617)
is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, but not absence of fear, da da da. And that's Mark Twain. There are so many quotes out there that are beating us over the head of like, bravery is not caring. It's not that. So there are times where bravery feels like drive heaving. There are times where bravery feels like I am absolutely, deftly afraid. But true bravery, for me at least,
George B. Thomas (53:15.902)
Yep. Facts.
Liz Moorehead (53:20.337)
is where I am not thinking about bravery at all. Because it's kind of like, do you want to make real money? Don't make money the goal, right? Do you want to do all of these different things in your life? Well, if you obsessively cling to a very specific ideal of what success looks like or a very specific metric, you're going to miss the mark entirely or you are going to forever stunt your growth.
Like that's just the reality. So when I think about moments of true bravery.
Liz Moorehead (53:57.981)
I'm not sitting there going, I feel brave yet? Do I feel brave yet? Do I feel brave yet? There's another quote that's, know, bravery is an action. You know, it is movement. It is doing the thing. The moments where I'm truly brave are where bravery for me is not a part of the conversation feeling or intellectually at all. I'm doing the thing. And I may be experiencing fear.
George B. Thomas (54:14.958)
You
Liz Moorehead (54:25.566)
while I'm doing it, I may be experiencing all of these other things, but you gotta go. You gotta go, you gotta go do the thing. And so bravery to me, often is something maybe I may think about in hindsight, like man, that was a brave thing I did. Right, if we constantly feel like we need to tap into bravery in order to be brave, we're kind of missing the point. If you have something in front of you,
George B. Thomas (54:44.238)
Hmm Hmm
Liz Moorehead (54:55.101)
that requires you to do something, stop worrying about whether or not you're brave and start thinking about the fact of if you're sitting there waiting to feel motivated to do something, you will be waiting forever. If you are waiting to feel confident about something before you do something, you will be waiting to feel confident forever. It's that thing that James Clear talks about in Atomic Habits, right? Motion before emotion.
George B. Thomas (55:20.77)
Yes.
Liz Moorehead (55:21.863)
And we've talked about this on another podcast. One of my favorite quotes is, you're not a tree, move. Like just, now granted, I sound like I'm doing this from the perspective of Liz moves and moves through fear and stuff every, no, ding -a -lings. I still find myself in moments of paralysis. I still find myself in moments where I get stuck. But I've noticed the times when I struggle quote unquote to be brave.
I'm masking the real problem. It's not that I don't know how to be brave. In many cases, it's just because I feel overwhelmed and don't know what my first step should be. Or I don't know it's okay to ask for help. But often it's just what the first step is. Because I'm either obsessively thinking about every single step I think I need to take.
George B. Thomas (56:12.974)
Wow.
Liz Moorehead (56:17.217)
Or there are too many things all at once and I don't know where to start and all I need to do is just sit down and make a list or make a plan or just step out on stage or just do the dang thing, right?
It, some time, I wrote about this once in the newsletter beyondyourdefault .com forward slash newsletter. You just, just slide that right in. We want things to be harder than they actually are.
George B. Thomas (56:42.776)
You fit it right in there.
Liz Moorehead (56:51.881)
because it creates a safety in which we don't need to take action if things are harder than they actually are. Like think about having to break up with someone. Yes, theoretically having tough conversations is tough, but let's strip all the emotion out of it. You need to call them. That's a phone call. You need to set a time to meet. That's not difficult either. And then between five and 20 minutes,
or maybe longer depending on how they react to the new. Overall, it's about cumulatively 30 to 45 minutes of lift.
Like, and I know that sounds like really heartless to say it that way, but let's be realistic here. We often will exert a lot more mental energy than it does to actually complete a task.
Right? You know, the breakup. Again, that thing could take five minutes. They might get upset, they might throw water in your face, and then they may walk out the door. They may actually ask a lot of questions, so it takes an hour. Either way, the lift is pretty light. You have to sit with uncomfortable feelings. But feelings, it's just a feeling. And it sucks to hurt people. It sucks to do things that aren't fun.
George B. Thomas (57:59.278)
Hmph.
Liz Moorehead (58:08.431)
even going to the DMV, which we also will just hold over our heads and it's awful, right? So even that like is an hour, maybe two. Actually, if you do a little planning, you could probably get an appointment and you'd be fine too. You know, it's just, it's one of those things where we think in order to be brave, we must make the goal being brave. And I think that's where we get tripped up.
George B. Thomas (58:29.536)
yeah.
Liz Moorehead (58:35.666)
So when we ask what bravery feels like, bravery feels like you're not thinking about bravery, you're just dealing with whatever is in front of you.
And it'll be messy and it'll be uncomfortable. But like, like I said.
A breakup? You will spend hours, days, weeks giving yourself mental anguish over something that may cumulatively from a lift and transactional perspective anywhere from a half an hour to two to three hours.
You can watch The Godfather Part 2 and have it be done.
And I know again, that's a very heartless way to put it, but think about things in your life where you have spent more time thinking and worrying about the thing than actually doing the thing. I had a work task last week and from the outside, by the way, I don't think anybody would have noticed I had an issue with it. Got it in on time, looked great, client approved it. Everything was awesome. Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Liz Moorehead (59:48.073)
That was a task I put off. Still hit my deadline, but I definitely was like, I'm gonna knock it out at the beginning of the morning, because it's the thing that's freaking me out. Definitely punted it to the next warning.
George B. Thomas (59:57.262)
Hmm
Liz Moorehead (01:00:01.129)
I about it that whole day that I had punted it. And it was fine. It ended up taking me about 35 minutes to complete and it went swimmingly well and it was delivered on time and the client was happy and everyone was happy.
It was a dumb thing. I gave myself 12 hours of anguish for absolutely no reason.
Liz Moorehead (01:00:24.618)
I don't know. That's my thoughts about bravery in terms of what it feels like. Bravery, true real bravery feels like just doing whatever it is that needs to be done without thinking about, am I being brave? Is this being brave? Do you think John McClane was sitting there worried about being brave and die hard? No.
George B. Thomas (01:00:27.886)
You
Liz Moorehead (01:00:51.569)
And that man was miserable the whole time. He was complaining the whole time. He did not want to be there. He was supposed to not be working. He was like, how do I get into this shit? You know what I mean? Like, he's not, think about, that's what makes John McClane, but now granted, is he completely unrealistic in his body, like with Stan's things that should not be with, yes, because it's movies and shut up. But at the same time, that's what makes Die Hard so flippin'.
quote unquote, relatable. John McClain doesn't, John McClain doesn't want to be there. And then in Die Hard 2, he doesn't want to be there extra. And he even goofs like just kind of, he's cheat. How does this keep happening to me? And he's not happy about it. He's not sitting there like, yes, a moment to be brave, a moment to explode, a moment to take my shoes off and walk across glass or go through on a snowmobile or in an airport. Like all of these, no.
George B. Thomas (01:01:21.898)
Best Christmas movie ever.
George B. Thomas (01:01:39.694)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:01:48.369)
He's so relatable because he's just going forward because he has to.
That's what bravery feels like to me. Also, pukey.
George B. Thomas (01:01:56.374)
I love that. Moving forward because you have to. I totally thought of Nike like, just do it. Just do it.
Liz Moorehead (01:02:02.867)
Just please, yeah, like we're having a whole conversation about bravery today and really the whole point of the conversation is stop obsessing about being brave and just get your ish done. Like that's really, and here's the thing, and going back to other conversations we've had, doing the dang thing, it's hard because it's easy. You want it to be harder than it actually is because actually going through the motions and doing whatever it is that you're supposed to be doing, that's not a lot of effort.
George B. Thomas (01:02:12.333)
Hmm.
George B. Thomas (01:02:29.422)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:02:30.397)
What you're concerned about is sitting with uncomfortable feelings. What you're concerned about is rejection. What you're concerned about is, I already too late? Well, none of those things are gonna change.
You just gotta go. So George, I'm curious. What's the one thing you want people to take away from this episode? Or do you want me to go first? What are you feeling?
George B. Thomas (01:02:53.87)
No, I'll go first because mine's simple look for ways that you can
Be alive. Look for ways that you can take action.
Look for ways where, again, you're not thinking about being brave, but because you are alive and you are a human who takes actions. I am a human who takes actions. I am a human who is brave. I am a human who embraces discomfort. Just be alive and take the actions you need to take.
Liz Moorehead (01:03:42.035)
I love that. My one thing from the episode is this. You're already brave.
You're already brave. I guarantee you, if you were to look back at your own life right now, you could make a pretty substantial list of moments where you know and can see now you were brave, and in the moment you did not feel brave. Bravery is kind of like a recession. You can really only declare a recession after it's already occurred. You're probably not gonna feel brave about something until after it's already happened.
Liz Moorehead (01:04:22.951)
Look back at your own life. Think you will find more evidence of you being a brave, whole ass human than a scaredy cat. And guess what? If you even find evidence of like, man, I could have been more brave, fantastic, lesson learned. Congratulations, you're a human being. You're not gonna be perfect all the time. None of us can be. Imperfection is exhausting and boring.
Liz Moorehead (01:04:52.507)
Your goal this week, my challenge to you.
is to champion the moments where you were brave and didn't give yourself that pat on the back. Because you earned it. You really did. And then put bravery out of your mind.
George B. Thomas (01:05:02.51)
You
Liz Moorehead (01:05:18.183)
Recognize bravery and retrospect. Don't seek it out as you look toward your future. Just get moving. Do stuff. Don't sit there and think yourself to death.
I know that was like 15 things, but I was channeling my inner George.
George B. Thomas (01:05:37.211)
Yeah, there you go. mean, listen, if you're listening to this podcast, you're focused on personal growth. You're trying to develop yourself to be the best human. You're trying to develop your lifestyle to be a life that you're living beyond your default. Bravery is the doorway to improving your decision making along the way.
It's the doorway to enabling you to activate problem solving skills that you're going to need in the hills and valleys of life. Bravery is going to be the doorway that helps you strengthen relationships and helps you build inner trust and outer trust. It's going to be the doorway that creates this positive change that you're going through. It's the doorway to the passion and purpose.
that you need.
Just be brave, open up the door, and walk that path to a life beyond your default.
Liz Moorehead (01:06:33.683)
Do it.