Honesty, Part II: Integrity and Honesty Without

Episode Transcript

Liz Moorehead (00:02.798)
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your host, Liz Moorhead, and as always, I'm joined by the best man there is, at least in my eyes, George B. Thomas. How you doing, buddy?

George B. Thomas (00:12.724)
I'm doing good. How are you doing today, Liz?

Liz Moorehead (00:15.022)
Fantastic, let's go right into our highlights and lowlights for the weekend. So highlight, I am actually coming to you live from scenic cosmopolitan Wallingford, Connecticut. Some call it the Paris of Connecticut. Wallingford itself, is it that exciting? No, but I had a really great weekend seeing a lot of friends, had some really good healthy discussions about honesty, which...

makes me excited about today's conversation. But overall, it was just a really great, it was that perfect blend of meaningful time with people. And then what I like to lovingly call potato time, which is Liz time, me time, fill my cup time. And it felt freaking amazing. I felt like I got that perfect balance. And I always get nervous during weekends when I travel.

George B. Thomas (01:01.3)
Yeah

Liz Moorehead (01:11.662)
because so much of it is taken up by, you know, I'm driving up here and then I'm driving back. You know, there's so much back and forth there. But overall, it was just a fricking fantastic weekend. And only got one rage response to this weekend's newsletter, beyondredefault .com forward slash newsletter, which was from my friend Derek, which is, please stop personally attacking me.

Also don't stop personally attacking me. So that's great. You know, we're, we're, we're growing. We're thriving by force together. Low light. as we're recording this, George, I regret to inform inform you. It is the first day of the seventh month of 2024. The first day of the seventh. Where is this year going? Where is it? All right. Bud.

George B. Thomas (01:58.804)
That's crazy.

George B. Thomas (02:05.716)
Bye bye.

Liz Moorehead (02:10.382)
What are your highlights and load lights from the weekend?

George B. Thomas (02:12.596)
Yeah, so my highlight is that our air conditioning works, which is because we were out for like, I don't know, three or four days of the previous week. And also I would say because it wasn't like hot as all get out here, I actually rearranged my office. So a couple of things about that that make it awesome.

Liz Moorehead (02:17.934)
WHAAAT

George B. Thomas (02:36.756)
I was able to move my desk to a new location. I did that so that I could get my walking treadmill underneath me 80 % of the time instead of like, well, let's be honest, 0 % of the time. I was also to add another monitor, which is cool, but I did this one in portrait mode. So now over to the far right, I can slide Slack and like Spotify.

Liz Moorehead (02:59.95)
What monitors do you have at this point? Is it just a wall of monitors like you see in the movies?

George B. Thomas (03:03.636)
No, so I've got two 24 inch Samsung slightly curved monitors up top. My teleprompter is actually also an Elgato like monitor teleprompter. So that could be considered a monitor. And then I have a I think it's 32 or 36 inch. I think that's Samsung, too, like a big.

Liz Moorehead (03:29.39)
You're like the Dominic Toretto of like home office hardware.

George B. Thomas (03:33.556)
Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, it's like video. So anyway, the nerd got nerdier and I love it because like I have everything set how I want. I've got like a different desk that people can come and sit in. And so so that was the highlight. The low light was when you move equipment around. Things start to happen.

Liz Moorehead (03:35.63)
I got 24 inch rim monitors, like.

George B. Thomas (03:57.812)
Two interesting things happened to me this morning. One, my walking treadmill started to make a really weird sound, which I'm hoping it just means that I need to oil it, hopefully. Otherwise, it's like I did all of this to now have to buy another walking treadmill, which would suck. So we'll see. But then also we started to record this and the audio was all sorts of kind of wonky. But that, hey, when you unplug everything and plug everything back in, you're just kind of praying that it works the first time out.

Liz Moorehead (04:26.542)
See, that's why when IT is like, have you tried turning it off and back on again? Sir, that could create more problems. Are we sure we want to do that? Clapton. Exactly. So this week, I'm excited. So we are having the second part of our discussion about honesty today. Last episode, we started with a conversation around self -deception and honesty.

George B. Thomas (04:33.524)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Liz Moorehead (04:56.462)
within. This week, it's a bit of a horse of a different color, right? This week, we're going the other direction, right? We're talking about integrity and honesty without. So whether that's in our personal relationships or our professional relationships, honesty...

I told you this before we got on today. I said, and I'm warning, warning, warning. And I mentioned, for those who listened to last week's episode, I mentioned that conversations on recent episodes had led me to reach out to have a discussion with someone I'm very close with. To clear the air, let's get honest. Let's have a truth party. Everyone's invited. Participation is mandatory. Let's have a good time.

George B. Thomas (05:20.884)
I have a fair warning.

George B. Thomas (05:44.436)
I'm sure. Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (05:48.142)
And so when I was thinking about preparation for today's episode, I've got to be honest, George, honesty as a topic. I think all of us as adults, you know, being honest and telling the truth. Like this is stuff we teach our kids, right?

I was surprised coming out of this weekend how much more of a nuanced topic honesty actually is. Because I think we want honesty in our relationships to be so much more straightforward than sometimes it actually is. Because I don't think any of us really wants to admit that sometimes our relationship with the truth can be a little soft around the edges.

but not because we're unmitigated butt heads and we're liars and we're intentionally obfuscating the truth from people we care about. But I'm very interested about where we are going to go into today's discussion. And I want our listeners to go into this conversation today with an open mind. Because I think one of the things that's gonna be tricky about this conversation is that honesty is a much more nuanced topic than I think we give it credit for.

And I think the reason why we have an aversion to this topic, particularly within ourselves and how we treat honesty with other people, is because we're worried what it says about our character when we are not as honest or acting with as much integrity as we believe we should be.

That's where my brain is at going into today's conversation. Before we go into today's conversation, George, within our first question, I saw you nodding along. I saw you being like, yeah, yep, here we go. It's time.

George B. Thomas (07:34.9)
Yeah, I mean, listen, this is why we had the first conversation before this conversation, because if you're lying to yourself, if you're deceiving yourself, then it becomes really easy to live a life where you're doing it externally as well. So you almost have to take care of the internal issues first so that you can focus on the external piece next. And here's the thing.

this topic and a lot of the other topics that we have talked about, many of us say the words and maybe think about the words, but don't think about the implementation like from a very tactical micro strategic standpoint. And that's what I love about this podcast is it gives us the opportunity to actually dive in to these

in a very intimate way. So I'm just agreeing with a lot of what you're saying, a lot of what you're finding and believing. And hopefully after the first episode and this episode, we'll have a lot of the listeners where they'll be very much the same of, okay, yeah, that was a thing that I need to pay attention to more.

Liz Moorehead (08:53.87)
I love what you pointed out there that if you have a flexible or challenged relationship with honesty within yourself, it's gonna manifest without. And that's why that phrase exists, right? As within, so without. Or if I wanna get more literal or more visual with what that relationship can look like. I know that my living space tends to be messier when internally, psychologically, I feel more confused or upset. Like my dysfunction in my head

if I don't feel like I have a good handle on things will manifest in my living spaces. And then it's just a self -perpetuating cycle, right? I'm messy in my head, so I'm messy in my life. And I'm messy in my life, which makes me feel messier in my head. And it's just boop, boop. It's a little horrible tennis match. But let's start today's conversation with talking about, George, why this conversation actually matters. And I mentioned this at the start, right? We're adults listening to this, right?

We're adults. We know honesty is important. I bet some of you listening have kids and you talk about why honesty is important with them. So do you really think that this is a topic that warrants an entire dedicated conversation if it's that straightforward?

George B. Thomas (10:12.212)
Yeah, so first of all, Liz, I have to kind of give a fair warning of my own for today's conversation, because I need to dive into some quotes and scriptures to kind of set the foundation to help emphasize the important parts of today's conversation. So along the way, you're going to hear me like just blip, blop, boop. I'm going to just drop these things as far as like quotes and

scripture and thoughts to kind of mold them or meld them together. So with that out of the way, like let's have this conversation of why honesty truly matters. And again, we all know honesty is important and we usually learn this life lesson early on, but it's easy to miss how much it impacts our lives, our relationships and our wellbeing. And honestly, our honesty is the cornerstone of all success without

Confidence and ability or the agility to perform shall cease to exist by the way That's a quote piece that I want everybody to understand by Mary Kay Ash that honesty is the cornerstone of all success and without which confidence and ability to perform shall cease to exist now you should jot that down in your notepad because you need to read that sucker like two three maybe four times and actually let it marinate in your brain a little bit, but

First, being honest with others builds trust and it strengthens relationships. And trust is the foundation of any meaningful connection that we're ever gonna have, whether with friends, family, colleagues, partners, it just doesn't matter. Trust is necessary for relationships, which by the way, all of us humans are in, to become like...

them to not be shaky and doubtful. You have to have trust. And I don't know about you, but if you've ever had a relationship where it's shaky and doubtful, you're like, this is not where I want to be or who I want to be here with. And so by focusing on honesty, we kind of build trust and create a deeper, more reliable connection to those humans that we're actually trying to take this journey on in life. Now,

George B. Thomas (12:36.244)
There's a Proverbs that I love and it's Proverbs 16 -28 and it says, Again, one that you have to probably read a couple times before you kind of, it sinks in and you get it, but, Do you want to be any of that? Well,

The opposite of that obviously is being an honest man or an honest woman. And when you're honest, you invite others around you to do the same, by the way. This mutual honesty can strengthen your relationships, making them more resilient and meaningful. And again, I don't know about you listeners, but if I'm going to have a relationship with somebody, if I'm going to take time to invest myself in them, for them, around them, I want there to be some kind of meaning.

And so sharing your thoughts and feelings, even when it's uncomfortable, can bring you closer to others. And this conversation shows how honesty that we're having today shows that how honesty can improve your interactions and build stronger bonds. So the other thing that comes to mind, Liz, when I think about honesty with others, is it encourages a key word. And I'm trying to remember if we've actually done a podcast episode specific to this word.

but it's a very important word and that's accountability. It's about taking responsibility for your actions, owning up to your mistakes and actually learning from them. And this sense of accountability is crucial for personal life, but definitely professional life. And let's just add on this layer of personal and professional growth. And when you're honest, you hold yourself to a higher standard. Listen,

If you're on a journey for this life beyond your default, you're probably going to have to hold yourself up to a higher standard in multiple different areas that we've talked about on this podcast. But honesty is definitely one of them. And when you can do this, when you can hold yourself to a higher standard, I think it leads to greater success and, a key word here, satisfaction.

George B. Thomas (14:57.812)
In all the areas of your life, and what I mean all the areas, let's just start with the superhuman framework. Like if you're looking at the superhuman framework and you want to have satisfaction and success in all of those areas, then honesty is a key component. But, you know, there's even more. Like honesty also means bringing truth with yourself. And this conversation encourages us, you, to reflect on your actions, motivations and mistakes.

Listeners, I need you to do something for me this week. I need you to sit down for a hot five to seven minutes. And I want you to reflect on your weekly actions, maybe your weekly or monthly motivations and the mistakes that you've made along the way. Cause it's only when we start to pay attention to those mistakes can we make changes and start to live life different.

But the self -awareness is crucial for personal growth. And that's what we're here for. We're literally trying to grow to be the best humans we can be. And when you're honest with yourself, you can identify areas for improvement and take steps to become a better version of yourself. And like we talked about last week, when you're honest with yourself, it leads into today's conversation that I kind of alluded to a little bit ago. And that is when you take care of the

trash inside, you're not necessarily depositing so much trash outside, like in and out. And so this leads me to a really big word that we'll probably end up talking about quite a bit in this episode, but it also brings forth two really dope quotes. So the first quote is from C .S. Lewis and it goes, integrity is doing the right thing.

Liz Moorehead (16:26.094)
You

George B. Thomas (16:47.924)
even when no one is watching.

And boy, boy, like even when no one's watching, which I live a life where I feel like there's always somebody watching, but there are times when there isn't anybody watching. And so doing that right thing, no matter what the second quote that I'm going to throw in here, because it's very like these pair, they almost feel the same, but but but they're from entirely different humans. And so the second one is from Oprah Winfrey.

Which by, if you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you know that I love me some Oprah Winfrey, especially her Super Soul Sunday, I think is the name of the podcast. my gosh. Anyway, if you haven't checked that out, it's super dope. But her quote goes, real integrity is doing the right thing, knowing that nobody's going to know whether you did it or not. Now see, there's a difference in those two. One is that no one's watching.

And the other one is no one knowing. And if you think about watching and knowing and actually doing the right thing in both situations and how honesty plays a part in that, now we start to get into this level of integrity. Like, in a world where social media often promotes curated and sometimes deceptive

versions of reality, like it's everybody's freaking highlight. Staying true to yourself is more important than ever, because it's real easy to kind of get sucked in. And this conversation that we're having today on honesty, I think hopefully it'll encourage you, the listener, Liz, you, me as well, like all of us, it'll encourage us to embrace authenticity. Because by being genuine, like,

George B. Thomas (18:45.908)
You can form meaningful connections and lead a life that reflects who you truly are. We've talked about the whole ass human concept quite a few times on this podcast, but honesty is a big part of that. It creates or cultivates or generates whatever words you want to throw in there. This positive environment. Like when you start to layer the things that I'm saying, you end up with this like kind of positive environment where honesty is a core value.

It creates a positive and supportive atmosphere at home, work, or your community, the places where you hang out. And promoting honesty encourages others to act with integrity, creating a more, I don't know, harmonious maybe, productive maybe. Again, you can kind of insert the word that you want, environment. But I'll kind of say, I'm gonna go into the scripture here.

I'm questioning myself if I wanted to go this far into the scriptures, but I want to hit here, Liz, Galatians 5, 22 and 23, because I could have answered your question with this, by the way, because when you think about honesty, these other words might come to mind or might have a relationship. So, Galatians 5, 22, 23,

but the fruits of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self -control. Boy, I can think about how honesty actually has a lot to do with the fruits of the spirit. And yeah, and this, by the way, these might be a really great framework for how you try to show up and how you try to be.

Liz Moorehead (20:31.086)
personal tech.

George B. Thomas (20:42.516)
So like, listen, dedicating a conversation to honesty is not just justified. It's essential for any of us trying to live our best life and especially for anyone who's trying to live a life beyond their default state. And so I'm gonna, before the next question that you ask me, I want to give one more scripture. And by the way, I warned everybody like today was gonna be a scripture and quote,

Liz Moorehead (21:11.982)
We need to stop apologizing for that. You know, you just need to show up on the mic and do what you do, because this is what we do.

George B. Thomas (21:12.532)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (21:17.588)
this is what we do. So, Philippians 4 .8 goes like this. It says, and by the way, well, it just goes like this. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.

Like, so when you hear like truth and noble and pure, like again, these are words that align or are part of, or like, I just go to the, yes, honesty is a big fricking conversation. Two episodes so far could probably be two, if not more, but it's definitely worth taking the time to have this conversation so that we as the host and you as the listener can actually unpack this junk.

and either say, hey, I'm doing a great job or go, ooh, ooh, whoops.

Liz Moorehead (22:24.458)
Well, that about wraps up the podcast, guys. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I think we had all the high notes and we don't have to ask each other any uncomfortable questions now going forward, do we, George? Just know we're good. That's not going to work because, you know, let's go back to episode 42, the superhuman framework, which outlines the 10 pillars for living a life beyond your default, one of them being honesty, which is why we are here having this discussion. You touched upon it there, but then you just brought it up again.

George B. Thomas (22:34.1)
That's how it's gonna work.

Liz Moorehead (22:52.622)
in going through why this conversation matters. And this is where we start to drill in to trust and credibility in relationships. Because you mentioned that being honest builds trust and credibility in relationships. But I'd love to hear from you about a time when being honest with someone helped you strengthen your relationship with them. Like, what does that actually look like in practice?

George B. Thomas (23:16.404)
Yeah, I hated this question by the way, but.

Liz Moorehead (23:20.078)
You always get one or two that you hate, and that's fine. It means I'm doing my job.

George B. Thomas (23:23.764)
So Liz, for me, this was a difficult conversation that I have to have because of the question you asked, but I'm willing to share it. As people may or may not have realized by listening to this podcast, I have two sets of parents. I have two moms, I have two dads. Now that comes with a whole set of its own difficulties. But when you move,

2400 miles away from one set of your parents by the age of three years old, there's bound to be some issues that arise. Now, I'm gonna try to transport us back in time for a minute, but I do want to share with the listeners that I have a great relationship with all my parents right now. So things have worked out.

and we're in a better place. But with that said, in an effort to answer your question, it wasn't always that way. And so this has been 10, 12, maybe 13 or 14. Wow, time flies. Anyway, we'll say 14 years ago. It could have been a little bit longer, a little bit less, nevertheless.

We were in, we, my wife and I, we're in Idaho and we are up in the mountains of Idaho and we're having a kind of special service for her father. Her father had passed away and we are coming off the mountain and all of a sudden our phones just started blowing up. Her phone, my phone, and we're like, okay, that's kind of crazy.

It's not crazy because you don't have cell service in the mountains of Idaho, but when you come down to where like normal folks live, that's cool. So come to find out that the same time we were having this service for my wife's father, my grandmother on my father's side passed away. Now, my father and I have always had

George B. Thomas (25:43.156)
difficulty in seeing eye to eye and believing what was best for me when I was growing up. And to be honest with everybody listening this, it's because we are so much alike. Even though I lived like 2 ,400 miles away from him for most of my life, we are so cut from the same cloth. We're stubborn, we're bullheaded, we have our own beliefs, we love passionately,

We're big teddy bears, but we love to hide it. We're just very much the same human. And so we hadn't talked for years and come to find out on my grandma's death bed, she looked at my dad and she said, you need to fix it. It's not his fault.

George B. Thomas (26:38.548)
And,

Liz Moorehead (26:39.95)
Take me to that moment, George. What did you physically feel?

George B. Thomas (26:43.636)
Like right now?

Liz Moorehead (26:45.07)
What take me to that moment when you first when she first said that to you?

George B. Thomas (26:48.948)
Well, she didn't say that to me. She said that to my dad. Cause I was in Idaho when she passed away, but to my dad, she said, you need to fix it. It's not his fault.

Liz Moorehead (26:51.774)
to your dad.

Liz Moorehead (26:57.966)
No, that's... Let me... Seth cut this part out. I didn't say the question properly.

Take me to the moment what you physically felt when you first heard that she said that.

George B. Thomas (27:10.1)
so when I heard my dad say that mom or grandma said that I needed to fix it because it wasn't your fault, I immediately actually was relieved. And to be honest with you, at that point, I almost felt like somebody finally saw me. And it was almost like she had given

him the vision she had, but he hadn't received at that point. And so we had a conversation, literally we met at a bar, sat down to have a couple beers because we needed to work this out and we needed to have a good relationship moving forward. And so where honesty comes into play is he said, he said,

Listen, I just stayed my distance because I thought it would be best for you. I thought you would just be able to be happy where you're at and with who you were with. And I looked at him, I mean, and I didn't skip a beat. I go, that's not what I needed and not what I wanted. I always wanted you in my life. And I didn't understand why you didn't wanna be there. And just having this moment where we were like raw and

honest and just had like this super cleansing yet dirty conversation of like past and future and and we literally ended the conversation with let's never let this happen again. Let's make sure we always focus on having a good relationship. And since that day, I mean, it's like any human relationship you

laugh, you cry, you struggle sometimes, but we've always come back to like, no, we're good. We're good because we're not where we once were. And we're not where we once were because we are willing to be honest with each other.

George B. Thomas (29:20.884)
I told you this was gonna be hard to come for, so I should know.

Liz Moorehead (29:24.206)
How does it feel to be honest about it?

George B. Thomas (29:27.38)
I mean, if it feels good, again, it's part of my life's journey that I don't think I'm shared with anybody other than my wife. And now I've literally shared it with whoever in the world that listens to this. And I guess what I would say too is to the listeners, like, if you have somebody like that in your life, then take the first step. Have the honest conversation if you can.

and try to put yourself in a good place. Like again, some circumstances you're not gonna be able to, but if you can and you want to, then quit making excuses and do it.

Liz Moorehead (30:14.126)
Can we end the podcast here?

George B. Thomas (30:17.716)
We tried to end this twice now and we're not even like halfway through.

Liz Moorehead (30:19.726)
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.

Those conversations are always such a challenge because, and I've been writing about this a bit in our newsletter because it's where my brain has been recently, is thinking about this idea of that frictional internal moment where we know what the truth is but we're still trying to get ourselves over the hump of saying the quiet part out loud. And that's usually the most friction -filled part of the conversation.

George B. Thomas (30:49.268)
Yep. Yep.

Liz Moorehead (30:56.334)
of the experience. Because when I think about times where I've had to have honest conversations with somebody where, man, I would love to, I would, I would like to listen to Gilbert Gottfried read the entire Bible, start to finish at max volume rather than say out loud anything that is in my heart. Like I don't, I don't wanna, don't wanna do it.

George B. Thomas (31:17.268)
I would think.

George B. Thomas (31:27.028)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (31:27.726)
But when I think about those moments where it has been a payoff.

Liz Moorehead (31:40.558)
that simplifying, we try to simplify our lives to a point where we create complexity. Because we do not want to confront a truth or we're worried, well, it's just gonna create more problems, more headaches than it's worth. Congratulations, you are now creating the exact headaches, the exact problems that you were trying to avoid. I had a conversation with a friend of mine this past weekend and I remember at one point I said to them,

I don't know if we're the smartest dumb people or the dumbest smart people alive because we've had this one problem for years to the point where the problem has been something where it's like, well, our friendship or whatever, it's just always so, it's so heavy and dramatic. So I showed up and I had notes, I had props, I had like, I was structured. I'm like, we are, I am not doing this anymore.

And so I laid it out and I walked through, I'm like, so this is one part of the challenge that I'm seeing. I'm gonna say all the quiet parts out loud. This is the other part and this is the third part. And then I looked them dead in the eye and said, wow, I wonder why everything feels so complicated all the time. What could it possibly be? And this is a problem that's been going on for six years, George, six years. Because we kept trying to keep it.

George B. Thomas (32:59.476)
Wow.

Liz Moorehead (33:06.03)
Simple. And it was just, it was so funny too, because as I was going through this, this is where I think sometimes we get into a challenge of, yes, that level of honesty was so important to us and it genuinely strengthened our friendship. Like we came out of that like in a much, much better place. I don't think we've ever been closer.

George B. Thomas (33:07.284)
Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (33:32.846)
But at the same time, it was almost impossible to have the conversation to begin with because I remember leading up to that conversation, I was mad as hell. I was mad. There had been a catalyst moment where I was like, I can't do, like both of us, we were just like, we're back here again. We're back here in the same spot. We've been just, it's been a cycle for years and it keeps happening and it keeps happening and it keeps happening. But what was so funny is that because we had been dishonest for so

long, it took me forever to figure out what was actually going on. It took me a week to even say we need to talk because I don't like going to somebody with a big bag of like unprocessed, unproductive emotions and going, hi, I don't know what to do with these, now it's your problem. Like I hate doing that. And then it took me another week once they agreed to meet with me to figure out, well, I know we're gonna have a conversation, but what the heck am I actually gonna say?

And then I had to put some mental, massive amounts of mental brain power behind, well, what is this conversation? What is actually going on? If you spend so much time being dishonest with somebody, you don't think you're being dishonest. You just don't, you compound and compound and compound the issue to the point where it's harder and harder to get out. Every time you are dishonest in a relationship with somebody, you're not saying that quiet part out loud.

Imagine every time you make the choice to keep your mouth shut, you're taking a step back from each other. And you're taking a step back and you're taking a step back. And then one day you look up and they're a thousand miles away and you have no idea how you got there.

George B. Thomas (35:05.332)
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (35:11.892)
It's interesting, Liz, as I'm hearing you kind of talk about this, there's a couple of things. One, you said a couple of times, we just wanted to keep it simple. And when I hear that, what I hear is that we just decided that we're going to lie to ourselves and to each other.

Liz Moorehead (35:22.798)
-huh.

Liz Moorehead (35:29.662)
my God, I have to break in here because you know what I actually pointed out to him? I said, let's pretend for a moment that our friendship is a lamp. Apparently at some point over the past six years, you and I went, let's just tell everybody it's a pony.

It's a pony. And then we're off to the races.

George B. Thomas (35:43.86)
Yeah. And here's the funny thing listeners and Liz, when I think about lies, I always kind of think about lies are like onions. There's layers deep usually they stink. And at the end they make you cry anyway.

Liz Moorehead (36:07.342)
Damn it, George.

George B. Thomas (36:10.516)
Just saying. Next time you go to tell that little white lie, just you're adding a layer and it's going to stink up.

Liz Moorehead (36:12.174)
my god.

Liz Moorehead (36:17.582)
The funny part though, it doesn't feel like lying sometimes because what was funny is I remember having this conversation and saying it took me a while to realize we were talking about the wrong problem. We were going circumstance by circumstance and situation by situation. We'd take turns like, this time you were a jackass, now it's your turn to apologize, now this time it's my turn to apologize. It's just a never -ending exhausting tennis match. It's exhausting. And so that's...

George B. Thomas (36:37.076)
Hmm.

Liz Moorehead (36:46.254)
but that's the key there, right? If you don't act with honesty from the beginning, these issues compound. And then it'll get to the point where you don't even realize you're being dishonest anymore because you've lost sight of what's actually going on.

So question for you. Can you talk to me about a time, you know, we're sitting here lofty, like, just be honest kittens, that's it. That's all you need to do. Check that truth box and you're ready to rock. But it's not easy. So can you talk to me about a time when maintaining your integrity was particularly challenging and how you navigated it? you're already smirking. Okay.

George B. Thomas (37:05.012)
Mm -hmm.

George B. Thomas (37:27.124)
Yeah. Do you remember before we hit the record button, I told you there's a question I didn't have an answer for, but I'd let you know when we got there and I would let you go first. So I could actually see if it actually teed anything up. I stared at this question for over, cause I come back to it and stare at it again and I'd leave it and I come back and I stare to it again. And I was like, I don't know how to answer this question. I don't like.

Liz Moorehead (37:35.822)
Okay.

Liz Moorehead (37:53.582)
Why?

George B. Thomas (37:54.26)
I don't know, nothing like immediately popped to my brain of like, of this.

Liz Moorehead (37:59.886)
George, you've never had a time where telling the truth felt like giving what you would imagine birth to feel like. You've never felt that. You've never felt that there were times where to say the quiet part out loud was a hurdle. It was tough.

George B. Thomas (38:16.724)
I mean...

Maybe like, well, no, like, so maybe if, if so, cause again, I'm, I'm, I'm having a hard time connecting with this question, but the way that you just said it, I would say, well, probably the first time I got divorced because I literally was like, okay, nobody wants to say it, but this isn't working and I can't stay here.

Liz Moorehead (38:22.286)
Alright, fine. So you need me to go first on this one?

George B. Thomas (38:46.9)
And when I mean I can't stay here, like I can't stay here mentally. I can't stay here physically. I can't stay here relationally. Like I can't stay here. I have to go. And like, so I said that out loud as my brother pulled up and I took two suitcases of clothes and headed out. But...

Yeah, I don't know, I just have a hard time with this question because...

And maybe it's because of what we'll talk about later. So anyway, let's, so you go ahead and then maybe it'll spur something. So Liz, I'll ask you, have you had an experience where maintaining your integrity was particularly challenging? No, not.

Liz Moorehead (39:32.59)
We talked about this many times on the podcast. I'm an angel. I'm perfect. No, God, no. In fact, this this whole situation, I get it cosmically timed, cosmically timed. I did not plan this conversation to be podcast fodder. It didn't happen that way. But

George B. Thomas (39:35.828)
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Liz Moorehead (39:58.158)
The funny thing is that I think we do not realize that when we are struggling to say the truth that is in our hearts, we don't see it as struggling to maintain our integrity. I think we view challenges with telling the truth and challenges with maintaining our integrity as two different things, right? Because situational moments where you struggle to tell the truth are situational, they are circumstantial, you find ways to...

mentally architect reasons why it is challenging. Maintaining your integrity is something that sounds more like it's impugning your character, right? But the way, we talked about this in the Small Things episode, right?

Liz Moorehead (40:40.206)
How you do small things is how you do all things. And I think we need to be very careful about the judgment we place on ourselves.

Liz Moorehead (40:54.35)
And I think we need to be very careful about the judgment we place on ourselves when we find ourselves in the middle of the messy parts of the very human experience, where we have to make those choices to take a risk, to step outside of the norms, to say what is true. I'll give you a perfect exam.

leading up to the conversation I had this weekend.

we had been getting close to it. And I remember saying to them when we started the conversation this weekend, you know, it's so funny. I'm not, I'm a little surprised that we're here, but I'm not shocked. In a way, this conversation I think has been coming for a really, really long time. Jeez. I don't know what that is.

Liz Moorehead (41:47.374)
we had been coming to ahead.

And I remember as part of some of the conversations leading up to it, I had said exactly why I had struggled to tell the truth before. I wrote it in black and white. In fact, you know what? Let's see if I can find it.

Liz Moorehead (42:12.066)
I said, I knew for a long time that these were things I had wanted to bring up. I've known it for a very, very long time. However, there has always been a fragility about our connection, even though it is also in a very juxtaposing and almost contradictory way, incredibly strong.

stronger than almost any other connection that I have in my life. But I was so afraid of me challenging this area of our connection would be the final straw. This would be the thing that pushed it over the edge that finally made this thing break. So I consciously made the choice not to say anything because I didn't want to break our friendship. And also I

didn't feel at that point that I was clear on what it is I was even upset about. I didn't know what to say. I knew something was wrong. I could feel it. I could feel it all the time. But I didn't know how to name it, and I didn't know how to say it. And I was afraid that if I came to the table with just nebulous, vague feelings with nothing to actually point to, something would go wrong. And so that is an example of time.

where I made a choice not to say something and then I said that out loud that I've repeatedly made this choice not to say something. I've repeatedly done that. And to me, that is not telling the truth, right? That is not being honest. I wasn't maintaining integrity within the connection until I finally said that quiet part out loud, right?

George B. Thomas (43:47.444)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (44:01.39)
And this conversation that we ended up having this weekend was exceptionally challenging.

but we never fought during it. The room was completely filled with lots of uncomfortable feelings and whatever, but it was harder than I thought it would be, but mostly it was easier than I thought it would be.

Because here's the thing.

It's not just about whether or not you're willing to tell the truth. If we're talking about one -to -one relationships, you have to ask yourself, do you trust the relationship enough to withstand the truth? And that's usually where most blocks come in.

George B. Thomas (44:43.156)
So I want to be careful though.

Liz Moorehead (44:46.19)
George B. Thomas (44:46.804)
Because I don't want the listeners to necessarily think that silence is not being honest. It's because there is a season for everything. And sometimes the season is just to keep your mouth shut. And

Liz Moorehead (44:59.598)
I'd agree with that.

George B. Thomas (45:14.708)
And so I, again, like listening to you, I think there's a lot of times in my life where something could have been said.

but it's not that it necessarily should be so.

Liz Moorehead (45:31.214)
I agree with that because I actually said to them after I said I'm I'm shocked but not surprised I also said I'm not sure when this conversation could have happened before now.

George B. Thomas (45:43.348)
Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Moorehead (45:44.942)
but now is the moment, because I completely agree. Sometimes you are still in a fact gathering mode. Sometimes you're not sure how you feel about something yet. We've talked about this in the episode of Radical Acts of Stillness. Sometimes the best action is to zip it and to keep quiet.

Liz Moorehead (46:05.966)
I completely agree.

George B. Thomas (46:08.532)
Yeah. So I mean, what I'll say is, I don't know if there's anything radically in my brain that was spurred, but I will tell you this. There was a time where I had a conversation with a friend of mine. She was married, still is married. And they were having this...

interestingly difficult conversation about having another child.

And I believed in my core that this is what she wanted and that this would probably be a good thing for their family. I just had this feeling. I can't even explain it. And it was a feeling that I couldn't really shake because I tried to like, it's not my place. I shouldn't be having this conversation with her husband. Like they can figure it out themselves.

But when I see that word integrity and you're asking me this, like, how did you keep your integrity? How did you navigate it? If I wouldn't have said something, if I wouldn't have had the conversation, I would have probably always wondered should have I said something. I ended up having a conversation with her husband and it was heated and it was in front of, well, maybe not heated. He's Italian.

I brought it up to Italian level. We were pretty close to face to face, but we weren't yelling at each other, but we were passionate. We'll call it a passionate conversation. And I basically was like, you know, in so many words, bro, you need to, you need to give her this child. And the fun thing is they have their third child.

Liz Moorehead (47:47.054)
You did it up to my level? Welcome, one of us. One of us.

George B. Thomas (48:12.564)
And the other little fun thing, and we jokingly say it, but it's not necessarily exactly why it happened, but this child also has my middle name in their naming convention. So, but look, we joke about it, but it's not actually, anyway. So, but when I think about like, how do you navigate a time that was difficult and keep your integrity?

Liz Moorehead (48:28.174)
Thanks.

George B. Thomas (48:39.156)
during the situation, like I knew there was an issue. I had a conversation. I knew I needed to have another conversation. I didn't know what the outcome, cause I could have lost both friends forever.

or I could say what I felt I was supposed to say, and if it was the right thing in the right way, then we'd still be friends and the chasm that was being created in their relationship would be gone. So that's the story I'll share around this maintaining my integrity in a particularly challenging moment in life.

Liz Moorehead (49:17.134)
How do you handle situations though where being completely honest with someone might hurt their feelings? How do you balance those moments where you want to be honest, but you want to have empathy?

George B. Thomas (49:29.844)
Yeah, warning, warning. These are gonna be things that I'm consistently working on and many times consistently failing at, but.

Liz Moorehead (49:40.494)
So this is the thing where we, this is the work in progress section of today's conversation.

George B. Thomas (49:43.604)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, I think the older I get, the better I get at this. But I don't want anybody to listen to this part of the podcast and be like, dude's got his stuff together. I know how I want to have my stuff together. Right. So the first thing that comes to mind is I really try to take a beat, take a minute.

Because I need to understand my intentions. What are my intentions? Like, before speaking, I like to ask myself, why do I need to be honest? Like, is it to help the other person clear the air? Or am I just trying to unburden myself? Like, is this a selfish act of honesty? Or is it to better the situation that we're in? Like,

I need to be sure of my intentions and I need to be sure that my intentions are good and that they're guiding me in a way to deliver my honesty in a way that's compassionate versus like just crashing in their brain and causing chaos. So like understanding my intentions in even having that conversation or saying that thing. The other thing too is I always try to figure out when I, when I,

hit that beat. Like, am I just supposed to hold back? Like, there are times when full honesty might not be necessarily helpful.

Liz Moorehead (51:23.022)
Are you being honest or are you just being hurtful?

George B. Thomas (51:25.236)
Well, yeah, if the truth is likely to cause unnecessary pain without any real benefit, it might be a kinder thing to do as a human for me to just hold back and find a more gentle way to address the issue or a better time to address the issue and understanding if they're ready and right. And so like understanding, like I kind of mentioned like

Ecclesiastes 3 .1, there's a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heavens. Like, is this the time or not? And so giving myself the space for that, like, maybe, maybe not now. Sometimes as honest as you want to be, Liz, and I mentioned this earlier, there is just a season to keep your mouth shut, like zip it.

Dude, like just zip it for right now. Ecclesiastes 3 .1, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just season to zip it. The other thing that I'm very much tried to program myself in life in this and then so it therefore comes along for the ride on this conversation of honesty is a positive mindset. And so focusing on the positive,

Liz Moorehead (52:25.87)
Which part of the Bible is that?

3 -1, zip it. Tis the season to zip it.

George B. Thomas (52:52.66)
when I'm skipping that beat to kind of give myself time to think about this. Like if it's possible, I try to start with something positive. Acknowledging what the person is doing right can make the conversation feel more balanced and less like an attack. For example, I appreciate how much effort you put into this and I have a suggestion that might help even more. Like if you're a leader, you've probably heard of the...

S H space T sandwich, say something good, say the constructive criticism. Good. Yeah, the compliment sandwich. I just called it sandwich. But, you know, but but I, I try to be thoughtful with my words. Like, how do I? How do I frame this in a way like I want to be honest, but I also want to frame it. And so

Liz Moorehead (53:29.358)
Compliment sandwich. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (53:51.988)
There's kind of a communications ninja tip and that's like, I statements to express feelings and perspectives, which can help the other person understand where I'm coming from without feeling attacked. Like if you've had a conversation where it's like, you, you, you, you, you did this and you made me feel that way. And why do you always let instead of like, Hey, I just want you to know this is how I feel and how I perceived it. And, but like there's, there's a difference.

It's like a bringing in versus like radically extracting outward towards that human. And again, when I'm talking about this, I'm literally talking about like thoughtful words and I've mentioned compassion and you know, you have to be patient in these moments. Well, again, something I'm trying to do, trying to be, you should try to be patient and compassionate.

understand that the other person might not need time to process what I've said or that they might. Like, you've got to really almost have this like balancing act of like actively listening and paying attention to micro expressions. And if I'm supposed to jump into this conversation, then I have to like turn everything on high tune frequency and pay attention because at any moment we might need to make a right turn or dip out of this conversation.

If they might like initially react defensively or feel hurt, but if I'm being honest and we have gone that far to have the conversation, then I need to realize, okay, that's cool. Now I'm going to be patient. I'm going to treat you with compassion. I'm going to listen because I want to find the honesty come out of them. I'm very careful with that, though, because the first thing that

A rebuttal many times feels like a sword or a shield. It doesn't necessarily feel like the actual words of honesty. So sometimes I have to keep digging. But when I think about that, that's like where my brain goes. And Liz, I'd be curious of like your thoughts, like where your brain goes, either on what I said or just the question in general.

Liz Moorehead (56:15.406)
I think it's very romantic notion. You know, people say, you know, I'd rather you hurt me with the truth than love me with the lie. You know, there's the whole book by Kim Scott called Radical Candor, which talks about ruinous empathy, which is you think you're being empathetic, but you're actually just ruining everything. When I think about the conversations I've been having recently and also just in general, when I think about that balancing act of honesty versus empathy, I agree with what much of what you said.

You know, there is a time where, and this is where I sometimes end up in situations where I end up being accidentally quote unquote dishonest because I'm withholding feelings, but it's just because I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm actually feeling. Right? Again, I tend to err on the side of unless I can constructively show up with my feelings and explain what I'm feeling, why I'm feeling it, and how I got here and what I'm really looking to achieve in terms of addressing it, I have a hard time saying that out loud.

And sometimes that can appear as dishonest. And actually that was some feedback I got this past weekend, which is that, you know, it can sometimes feel like, am I waiting for the other shoe to drop? And it's just, often, no, you're not. There's nothing wrong. I just, I don't, and so what's interesting is finding that compromise, that understanding of it. Sometimes I'm just feeling a feeling because I'm being a butt head. I'm being a selfish, self -involved butt head and it has nothing to do with you.

The facts of the situation and my feelings on the situation are not even in the same room. They are on separate continents in different countries. And until I can figure out how to get my feelings back in the same room as the facts of what has actually happened, I tend to err on the side of keeping my mouth shut. That's where I tend to choose silence and stillness because my feelings aren't necessarily, they're not truthful in that they're not reflective of what is actually going on. But there is a difference between,

Feelings that are explicitly one -to -one directive. I am angry because they did this thing. I have every right to be angry. We need to talk about it so we can rectify it because a wrong was done. Right? But there are also those that I consider to be more instructive. What is this feeling trying to tell me about what is actually happening? Why am I feeling this feeling? Right? And this ties into this honesty versus empathy thing because

Liz Moorehead (58:41.134)
I feel it is my responsibility in my relationships to be very clear of that distinction. I'll tell you exactly what I told my friend this week and I said, I knew we needed to have this conversation because for the first time in the history of forever, you had brought up hanging out and wanted to schedule it and I immediately went, I don't wanna do that. I didn't say it out loud and I'm like, I have never felt that way. You are one of my favorite people on this planet.

George B. Thomas (59:00.052)
Boo.

Liz Moorehead (59:06.957)
I go out of my way to spend time with you. I go out of my way to make time with you. And that was the first time I had ever felt that. And I want he, and then they said, you know, do you not want to go? I'm like, no, of course I do. Of course I do. That's why I scheduled it. That's why I never told you. That's why I didn't say that. And I said, but there's a reason why I didn't bring it up then because immediately I felt, okay, you need to calm down, Liz. You need to take several seats. You need to dog ear.

this feeling like a spot in a book and come back to it later when you can actually look at it with a clear mind. And I said, I realized I'm glad I had that feeling, not because it was truthful, but because it was instructive in terms of you have now reached a point where this conversation must happen. This we've got, we've gone, we have now gone far enough.

That's usually the time I find the most of where I'm having that honesty versus empathy friction push and pull is this idea of, am I even ready to have this conversation? Because sometimes those feelings aren't instructive. Sometimes I'm just being a moody little bee. Sometimes I'm being selfish. Sometimes I'm just having a bad day and I'm having a level 15 reaction to something that is, yeah, not great, kind of annoying.

but it's really a level four kind of reality, right? And nobody needs to deal with my level 15 BS if it's a four. Nobody needs that. Nobody needs that. But then the flip side of that is this.

George B. Thomas (01:00:34.74)
Right.

Liz Moorehead (01:00:44.878)
That quote is true for a reason. Hurt me with the truth, don't love me with the lie.

George B. Thomas (01:00:50.708)
Mmm.

Liz Moorehead (01:00:52.334)
And it really forced me this weekend, one of the things that was so clarifying about this weekend was the realization that one of the reasons why it ended up, I said it was harder than I thought it would be and it was easier than I thought it would be in a lot of ways. It was easier in that it was a reckoning for me where I had to acknowledge, do I feel safe enough to tell the truth in this situation?

Because I had a lot of fears. I had a lot of friction. I think that's totally normal, right? I gotta say the quiet part out loud. Like it's a kidney stone. We gotta do it. We don't wanna, because we have natural fears. Like our brains are programmed to keep us safe, right? But there was a part of it that was easy. Because when I showed it to the conversation, I felt like I knew that this was worth fighting for.

I knew that out of any connection I have in my life, this is one where I feel the most psychologically safe. And so it was worth having that discussion for me. But then, if I'm taking it even a step further...

Liz Moorehead (01:02:02.382)
I didn't have a choice.

You have to. I mean, at some point it's a get off the pot situation. At some point...

Empathy, it is, I don't know, maybe it's just not even part of the conversation. It's a matter of, are you showing up to that conversation, making it a you versus them issue, or are you showing up to the conversation saying, this is us putting our brains together to solve a joint problem? And I think that's when I can start pulling empathy out of it because it's less of a personal attack. It's not about, this is you and what's wrong and hmm. It's about, hey, we have.

manifested this idiotic stupid chaos circus together like a family. Can we fix it, please?

George B. Thomas (01:02:50.26)
It's interesting. I love a lot of what you shared. The only thing that like my brain immediately jumped or wanted to jump at something you said is our brains are programmed to keep us safe.

I hope the listeners, especially of this podcast, realize your brain is reprogrammable. And that's what we're talking about on this podcast in many episodes is where should you program it to go in the direction that you need it to go, whether it be around honesty or any of the other topics that we've gone through. And so,

Liz Moorehead (01:03:12.206)
100%.

George B. Thomas (01:03:30.484)
I would want the listeners to actually give themselves, you know, 10, 15 minutes, 30 minutes after listening to this episode and say, how and where in my life do I need to reprogram my brain? And by the way, you might want to listen to the first episode and this episode, then you give yourself 15 minutes, 30 minutes, heck, maybe an hour. Maybe, maybe.

Liz Moorehead (01:03:53.198)
Maybe a whole day and just a nice cold compress and a blanket.

George B. Thomas (01:03:59.572)
Yeah, and be like, where do I need to reprogram my brain on this conversation of internal and external honesty?

Liz Moorehead (01:04:10.254)
I love that, and I completely agree. And that's, this is also something I wrote about in our newsletter many weeks ago, beyondyourdefault .com forward slash newsletter, where I talk about the difference between listening to your intuition and listening to your brain, because your brain is big, fleshy paperweight in your skull that is programmed at an instinctual level to keep you from getting eaten by dinosaurs as cavemen. Like we have a survival instinct, it is strong, and it is good.

I'd like to think of it though as a CEO versus COO situation. Your intuition, your inner cupcake, your voice of God, your whatever it is that you call it is often where you are going to find your deepest knowing. What it is you really want, what it is you really don't want, what's your purpose, what lights you up. That full body feeling that we are referring to when something is either a full body yes or a full body no. That is your CEO. That sets

the vision for the company that is your body and your life. Of course, CEOs are big visionary people. They need a COO to go, so this is how we make it practical, this is how we make it achievable, here are the spreadsheets, here are the teams, here are the operations and the infrastructure that needs to be stood up. I'm gonna ask you a couple of tough questions, but you have the abilities of the CEO to override. Your brain is your COO.

You see it, and that's good, right? You need a COO because it's going to enable you to take that big picture pie in the sky vision and make it real. Otherwise, you're just gonna be wishing forever from a sentient baked good located somewhere in your abdomen, like I do, right? And you don't want that. But this is why there has to be a balancing act. The COO isn't just there to challenge your vision to make sure it is sound and it is achievable.

It is also incumbent upon you as the CEO of your own life with your inner cupcake to push back and say, this is what we're doing. We don't have the iPhone because Steve Jobs played nice.

George B. Thomas (01:06:12.851)
Mm.

Liz Moorehead (01:06:14.67)
So those are my feelings on intuition.

George B. Thomas (01:06:17.492)
Love it.

Liz Moorehead (01:06:18.574)
George, I want to wrap up today's conversation.

by, and this is where listeners, you may hear me every week, so what advice do you have? And this is where I start frantically taking notes. So I would recommend you do the same. What advice would you give someone, air quotes, who struggles with being honest in their personal and professional life for whatever reason, and how can they develop greater integrity in their interactions?

George B. Thomas (01:06:46.964)
Yeah. So, and this is again, one of those interesting conversations, but learning from mistakes that you make, which by the way, I don't like, there's a whole conversation about failing versus like lessons. And I'm not talking about failing. I'm like, we all make mistakes, but learning from mistakes is key to developing integrity. It's important to acknowledge

that things happened to apologize when you catch yourself being dishonest. Which, by the way, I've had those days, by the way, where I started to tell a lie and literally was like, hold up. I don't know why I said that. That's just a bunch of bullshit. Like, here's the actual truth, which, by the way, when you do that to somebody, they're like, wow, OK. And I literally had those.

moments where I'm like, I don't know why I started to say that because that's not the way I feel or that's not actually what happened. This idea of kind of owning up to your mistakes, it shows accountability and commitment to honesty. And so, like, again, if you think about that, it's learned from the mistakes, but own up to your mistakes. The other thing is, and we talk a lot about

reflection in different episodes of this podcast, but like taking the time to reflect on what led to the dishonesty and think about how you can handle similar situations better in the future. Because by the way, if you're prone to do one thing here, you're probably prone to do that thing there.

I'm giving a pause so that can sink in, ladies and gentlemen. If you've done it once, you'll probably do it again because it becomes a habit. It was the easy way to get out of that conversation. It was the easy thing to say versus the thing that needed to be said. So reflect on what led to the dishonesty and think about how you can use that as a roadmap to treat it or do it better in the future. Because I think this process will help you grow.

George B. Thomas (01:09:02.9)
and strengthen your resolve to maintain this level of integrity that you want to keep as you're on this like journey beyond your default. Mark Twain, by the way, had a great quote. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. I'm like, dude, that is so freaking true. Which again goes back to my onions. Yeah. Like,

Liz Moorehead (01:09:27.182)
lazy person I love that love it great

George B. Thomas (01:09:30.996)
Onions, right? Like if there's no layers, then you don't have to remember what you're actually cutting through to get to the right one to have the conversation. But again, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything, Mark Twain. And so when communicating with other humans, as much as you can, where it makes sense, be specific and direct. Like the other thing that we do a lot of that we need to avoid is vague statements.

Why do we find it so hard to be clear about what you're being honest about? Like, man up, woman up, put your big girl or big boy pants on and like have a human conversation. When you can be, and I know I'm making it sound easier than maybe it is, depending upon the situation you're in, but when you're specific and direct, this helps others understand your perspective immediately and reduces probably one of the biggest

potholes in human communication and relationships and that's just general misunderstandings. Like you were vague, so they misunderstood you and so now they're pissed. Well, that's not really what I meant. But that's what you said. Well, but that's not what I meant. But that's what you said. And so begins the game of volleyball. So the other piece of this is there is a difference between listening and I'll give the analogy if like if you're a husband and a wife scenario.

and you're listening and you hear Charlie Brown's teacher, that is not listening, that's hearing noise. What we should be focusing on more and more as we try to like really hone into this honesty integrity thing is practice active listening, like being in the moment, showing people that you value them and you value their perspectives.

and giving it the time that is due. Liz, you literally have seen me do this. Tons of people that I hang out with have seen me do this. I'll purposely flip my phone over, screen down, so that I don't see anything, that there's nothing getting in the way, that I can actively listen. And also, be warned, if you ever hang out with me in the future and I flip my phone over,

George B. Thomas (01:11:53.652)
not only actively listening, but I'm looking at micro expressions on your face as you're talking to me because I am truly trying to understand the perspective and the vocabulary and the story that you're trying to get to me so that I can actually understand it. Because what I want us to do, what I'm trying to do is like, if you actively listen,

builds this mutual respect. It builds this roadway for honest communication, which can, instead of just being a one -way lane, is a two -way highway then, if you go into this. When you do these things, when you're trying to internally and externally foster a culture of this word that we're talking about, integrity and honesty,

It involves this layer of understanding that listeners, Liz, George, we have to lead by example.

We have to encourage open dialogue. We have to model the behavior that we want to see in both personal and professional settings. Which, by the way, this too goes back to the human framework and the story that I told about happy, helpful, humble human. And the fact that I was modeling and saying how I wanted others to show up. Well, you can do the same thing with honesty and integrity.

you encourage those open dialogues, you model the behavior, you lead the way to build this culture of integrity and honesty of those around you in your life. And when others see you prioritize honesty,

George B. Thomas (01:13:51.86)
parts of a feather flock together, they're more likely to do the same. So in our life as humans, as leaders, as however you're showing up, we have to create an environment where open and honest communication is encouraged and valued because this, and this is a superpower, this reduces fear, which Liz you talked about multiple times. I was afraid this relationship couldn't handle it.

I was afraid that, so this reduces fear and it cultivates a culture that you want to be in that is integrity based and driven by honest conversation. Titus 2 .7 by the way, because you know, I can and Liz said just show up and be you. In everything set them an example by doing what is good.

in your teaching show integrity, seriousness. And so in everything, set them an example. That's what I want you in. By the way, today we're talking about honesty, but all of these podcast episodes, I could have put this Titus two seven in there in everything. Set them an example by doing what is good.

Like developing greater integrity is a journey that requires self -reflection. Are you doing that? Practice. Are you doing that? And by the way, support. Do you have that? Like who is your support partner on this honesty train that you're trying to actually ride through life? You can become more honest and trustworthy by...

You can become more honest and trustworthy by taking small steps. Again, ties into my 1 % better each and every day methodology, improving your communication skills and building, again, a supportive environment where now you don't feel like you're the lone person on a lone island, but there's somebody coming along on this road with you, these rails with you that you can actually have a support. Proverbs 10, nine.

George B. Thomas (01:16:16.82)
Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but whoever takes crooked paths will be found out.

I'm gonna let that one set in for a second. Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but whoever takes crooked paths will be found out. This one makes me, my brain lead into like imposter syndrome and like, cause I don't think we've actually done an episode on imposter syndrome yet, by the way, which is a whole nother thing, but you obviously want to walk.

Liz Moorehead (01:16:52.91)
You need to restart that. We have a whole episode on Impostor's Intro. It's like an hour and a half long.

George B. Thomas (01:16:55.285)
Okay. Cut to here. By the way, when I think about this one, I think that you could maybe go to beyondyourdefault .com and go check out the episode we did on imposter syndrome. Because I know me, especially when it comes to today's topic, honesty, I want to walk securely. Heck, in a lot of the topics we talk about, I'd much rather walk securely.

versus always being nervous or anxious about this idea of being found out. So as we kind of wind this bad boy down, remember the goal is progress, not perfection. Every step you take towards greater honesty is gonna strengthen your character and build a foundation for more authentic and meaningful relationships that you'll be building along this journey of a life beyond your default.