Liz Moorehead
Episode Transcript
Liz Moorehead (00:02.351)
Welcome back to Beyond Your Default. I'm your host, Liz Moorhead, and as always, I'm joined by the one, the only, George B. Thomas, and it has been so long since we've been on the mic together.
George B. Thomas (00:12.394)
It feels like forever, which is crazy. don't necessarily like that feeling, but I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be talking about this topic. And I'm also glad that it's after all of the things that I've done over the last like two weeks. So there's that.
Liz Moorehead (00:36.229)
Well, before we dig into all of that, talk to me. Highlight, lowlight from the weekend. What do you got for me?
George B. Thomas (00:44.308)
Yeah, and I think I'll extend past the weekend since it has been a while since we recorded. The highlight for me is we're coming back from a marketing slash sales slash conference. If you're listening to this, you might not be in the HubSpot or Inbound space, but there is an event called Inbound.
Liz Moorehead (00:49.905)
Mm.
George B. Thomas (01:08.088)
The highlight is this year I have reached something that I've never reached before and that is I spoke five times at Inbound this year. Yeah, so we had these two late nights with George B. Thomas and Friends shows and then I did a debate and then I got to do my actual talk on the future of content, human and AI harmony basically and then had an on -car for that.
Liz Moorehead (01:15.43)
Wow.
George B. Thomas (01:34.636)
So it means that I got to meet a lot of people, shake a lot of hands, all of that good stuff. The low light is also around that event or dare I say getting to and coming from that event. My wife went with me and a little side note, I love my wife but my wife hates to fly. usually when I fly, it's like there's no harm, no foul, like things just...
go the way they're supposed to go. But I feel like maybe it's because my wife was with me, that on the way we got delayed, on the way there was literally a captain who came on and said, there is something hanging off the wing that we're going to check before we take off. To which my wife looked at me and said, what did he just say? Because she was watching your movie. I said, you don't want to know. But she watched your entire movie on the tarmac.
before we even took off. And then on the way back home, well, let's just say we were delayed three hours before we actually took off. And we ended up getting home at like one thirty a in the morning. So I was like, note to self, traveling with wife, maybe stay in a car, maybe don't do airplanes. But the event was amazing. Traveling and being with her was amazing. It was just getting here and there that was slightly the
Liz Moorehead (02:44.657)
What?
George B. Thomas (03:04.258)
the low light for us. How about you, Liz?
Liz Moorehead (03:07.299)
man, it has been a wild couple of weeks. And I'm very excited to say that my highlight and my low light are related. Yes, do tell. So I will have.
George B. Thomas (03:20.724)
you're town.
Liz Moorehead (03:27.621)
I had a pretty significant health scare over the past week. And you and I talked about it a bit yesterday. And I made a comment about how normally when we hop on the mic and somebody's getting humbled by a health scare, it's Liz getting to ask very incisive questions of George about his experience. And now the shoe had switched to the other foot.
George B. Thomas (03:48.597)
Yes.
George B. Thomas (03:56.386)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (03:57.561)
And it was one of those situations where you have to let the process work itself. Meaning, I had to spend a lot of time as someone who is a control freak, as someone who doesn't like to wait for things, waiting.
George B. Thomas (04:17.724)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (04:18.723)
and really working with myself to not doomsday predict, to not lapse into fatalistic thinking. And it really bums me out because as a result, I had to be responsible. I didn't get to go to the conference, I needed to stay here, there were things I had to do in order to be present. And so for the past, gosh, weekish?
George B. Thomas (04:32.824)
you
Liz Moorehead (04:45.785)
You know, I've had to find ways to stay positive and not, or at least stay functional and not kind of bottom out.
George B. Thomas (04:55.904)
Yeah, which is, first of all, it's a lot of energy. It's hard. I've been on the other side, proud of what you've been doing and how you've been doing it, by the way. And it's funny because I'm sitting here nodding my head as you're going through this and I'm like, yeah, we could teach the healthcare system a thing or two about customer experience and like streamlined communication processes, but I don't think they care.
Liz Moorehead (04:57.849)
A lot of energy.
Liz Moorehead (05:09.041)
Thanks.
Liz Moorehead (05:20.089)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, I don't think they care. And I will say the care team at Johns Hopkins, I will say, were incredible. were kind of in a, I can't imagine being in a situation where, know, think about our customer experience, right? Like if somebody's having a hard time, us being overly positive in a sincere and authentic way, in a proactive problem solving way,
George B. Thomas (05:42.178)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (05:51.756)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (05:52.025)
That is much more feasible than a doctor. It's like, we can't get creative here, right? And if you don't have answers, you can't fake having answers. If you don't have optimism, you can't fake having optimism. I will say though, having been with other doctors, I agree. Some of them, it's like, hey, Cupcake, I understand we don't have answers, but can you remember this as a whole ass human in front of you who maybe hasn't been here before? Yeah.
George B. Thomas (05:56.821)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (06:15.032)
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I'm reflecting on one in particular doctor and actually on today's topic, I'm like, maybe he was burnt out because he had no zero. mean, maybe negative 20 bedside manner as I laid there wondering if I was ever going to leave the hospital. But anyway.
Not why we're here.
Liz Moorehead (06:44.953)
No, it's so funny. had a similar one when I was younger. My dad was with me and he's like, okay, so you're just gonna have to suck this up because he sucks when it comes to bedside manner, but he's the best at what he does. So we need him effective there. We don't need him to be your best friend. like, okay. But the highlight is that I got the call this morning that I am all clear.
George B. Thomas (06:55.266)
Mmm. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (07:00.822)
Yeah, I guess.
George B. Thomas (07:08.69)
nice. there we go. I'm so - I need an applause button.
Liz Moorehead (07:12.977)
Yeah, I know. And I almost told you before, but I literally got the call at 8 .15 this morning. And what was so funny about it is that you spend, funny, haha, not really, but it was a highlight for me for obvious reasons. But I will say being healthy is a good thing.
George B. Thomas (07:26.507)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (07:32.854)
Yeah, yeah, being healthy is a good thing.
Liz Moorehead (07:37.477)
But one of the things you and I talked about leading up to this is that, you I hope I get to the end of this and say like, this was a great exercise in emotional clarity. And it really was. What is baffling though is that you spent days, hours, just like constantly thinking and quote unquote, not thinking about this. And then in a five minute thing, it's gone.
George B. Thomas (07:46.946)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (07:59.266)
Mmm. I know where you're going.
Gone. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Yeah. Isn't that crazy how your brain just like, your brain's like, okay, thanks, bye, I'm done.
Liz Moorehead (08:05.413)
but it's a, excuse me, like a hit and run. Do I have an insurance claim for this? Thanks. you're good? Great, fantastic. That existential crisis was super fun. Let's never do that again. But it was very clarifying in a number of ways. One, I made a.
George B. Thomas (08:21.612)
Yeah, exactly.
George B. Thomas (08:30.454)
I feel like that could be a whole future podcast episode of like, when Liz meets clarity.
Liz Moorehead (08:34.465)
Well, now we've gone from the, when Liz meets, well, now we've gotten to the part, George, where like, remember how I made a joke of like, we could make content about this? You're like, I don't know about that. And I said, this is me coping. We now can do that. But it was emotionally clarifying in a couple of specific ways. One, it really made me mindful about rest, which I did not expect.
George B. Thomas (08:44.214)
Yeah. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (08:59.626)
Hmm. Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (09:01.019)
Like I had to be really careful with myself over the past week about how much I engaged with other people, how much I poured myself into work, but also made sure I had to stop being really careful about everything I was doing because I was as tightly wound as one could possibly be. And it was over something I was keeping private and I didn't want people to know. Like I told you and I told like one other person.
George B. Thomas (09:27.69)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Liz Moorehead (09:30.673)
And it was just, so it was that. And then it also made me really mindful about, I was going through a week in a haze where I didn't know if I was gonna come out the other side with something, a potentially catastrophic diagnosis. I didn't know. Because what we were dealing with is like, I could be getting a diagnosis where it's fixable, I could be getting a diagnosis where it's way too far. Like there is a comp
George B. Thomas (09:45.516)
Right, right.
Liz Moorehead (09:56.361)
Like it is a scatter plot of what the other side of that could have looked like if the answer had been different. I love that. That's the kind of spice we love in life, That's not the salt and pepper I think you and I talk about on this show. No, that's humor, not this. But it also made me very mindful and observant of where am I spending my time?
George B. Thomas (09:56.695)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (10:01.58)
which is always exciting.
Yeah.
Nah, not really.
Liz Moorehead (10:21.155)
I have a thousand quote unquote little projects that I'm working on. What are the ones that are actually important? What are the ones that have accidentally gobbled up the ones I should be focusing on? It made me do a lot of thinking about certain relationships that I have in my life where it's like, so has this run its course or have I got, it just started making me ask the right questions. And I'm glad I have the opportunity
George B. Thomas (10:30.67)
yes.
Liz Moorehead (10:50.679)
again to do something about it. You know, so that was the big, highly big little, you know, but yeah, man, this morning was great.
George B. Thomas (10:52.938)
Yeah. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (10:58.562)
People are listening and like, I want details. Well, maybe on a future podcast we'll give you more details.
Liz Moorehead (11:03.717)
Maybe on a future podcast, but right now Liz is just, know, Liz gets to keep Lizzing and that's what we're all gonna be really happy about today. Yeah. I am also excited about today's topic because this is a topic that people talk a lot about. We talk about, we're talking about burnout, kids. We're talking about burnout. But when you and I sat down to talk about this,
George B. Thomas (11:09.186)
That's a good thing, yeah.
George B. Thomas (11:18.85)
Yeah, yeah.
Liz Moorehead (11:26.319)
We wanted to talk about it from a very specific angle, which is a lot of times people talk about burnout in the abstract, right? Burnout in the context of maybe you like what you do, maybe you don't. We don't know. It's just kind of this nebulous cloud of burnout, right? But what happens when you experience burnout doing what you love? Because that's the horse of a different color.
George B. Thomas (11:29.111)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (11:43.958)
Yeah. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (11:52.781)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (11:56.163)
And I know George, that's something that's very personal to you.
George B. Thomas (12:00.246)
I mean, yeah, I love what I do. I mean, I'm very passionate about many things. And I mean, if I kick this back to like the superhuman framework, like one of the four cornerstones, one of the four pillars is literally like passion, you know, and based on purpose. And so it's very easy, I think, for people to have this conversation around burnout when like you just
clock in, clock out mentality. When you sort of like hate what you do, but you do it because you need to like pay the bills. But when you're like purposefully passionate about the things that you're doing.
What does that look like in dealing with that? So yeah, I'm excited to get into this.
Liz Moorehead (12:52.113)
Well, let's dive in with an easy question, shall we?
George B. Thomas (12:55.879)
really? I thought this was the hardest one, but okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Let's do it.
Liz Moorehead (12:57.905)
I know. No, I know. I know. Well, I want to bring some context to what we're talking about. I don't want us to start with, know, let's define burnout. Now, I want to dig right in. Have you ever had to take a break from work you love due to burnout? And I want us, when you take us through the story to talk about what did the process of addressing and identifying that burnout look like? And how did you know when it was time to come back?
George B. Thomas (13:11.021)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (13:26.016)
Yeah, I wish I had a pretty story for this. But first of all, like I was I was excited when I first started reading this question because I realized it was a one word answer. Yes. Yes, I have. Like, you know, like you literally it's like, hey, have you ever had to take a break? Yes. Can this conversation be over? But I've actually had to do it several. Yeah, exactly. But but I've had to do this several times.
Liz Moorehead (13:49.093)
glad to be back on the mic. Do I have to answer questions?
George B. Thomas (13:55.736)
And by the way, in retrospect, in good ways and in bad ways. Like if I'm being honest with you and the audience myself, historically, Liz, it usually ends up with me like binging TV for a couple of days with copious amounts of snacks and beverages, maybe like a large blanket.
all the lights are off or it ends up in that I get sick and I'm in bed for multiple days because I've like just run the course of like just dragging me right into the ground or let's be honest, there's been conversations on this podcast where I've been in the hospital and like so we kind of like watched burnout come, waved at it, let it pass by and kept on driving through.
In other words, historically, I've really sucked at this. Like I've just been bad. But it is also something that I've been trying to focus on and get better at for, I'd say probably at least the last five to six, well, six to eight, maybe six to eight years that I've been trying to focus on this started with the first time I ended up with in the hospital. And I was like, maybe hustle isn't the thing.
even though a good work ethic is, but how do I manage that? And the older I get, like when I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, it's like, okay, how do I start to pay attention to my physical? How do I start to pay attention to my mental signs that it's time for a break? And I got really good, especially when we started the business at like designing vacations, building in breaks.
And kind of paying attention to what I'll call this like burnout thermometer, if you will. It's like, how can... Well, it's not as cool as it sounds. Like how can you tell the temperature outside because there's a thing called a thermometer. Well, how can you tell the temperature inside or outside of you around the work that you're doing? It's because you pay attention to it, because you have a gauge that measures it. You have a...
Liz Moorehead (15:57.393)
I need more information on that.
George B. Thomas (16:17.432)
It might sound strange, but my burnout thermometer is I can literally feel I'm using air quotes even though you can't see this or if you're watching on YouTube or in the community you can but I'm I can feel physically and mentally when I'm close to done done exhausted or More importantly when I need to refuel But an important piece is before
what I would call burnout sets in. And so it's almost like I can thread the needle, if you will, or there's an old gleaming the cube. That's an old Christian Slater movie, by the way. But like, it's this thing of like, I can really get close to it, but then pull myself out before I get sucked into the vortex of burnout. And the other part of your question, though, you ask about like, coming back.
Liz Moorehead (17:16.367)
Yeah, how do you know when to come back?
George B. Thomas (17:16.944)
Yeah, so it's interesting because for me, and again, this is not predicated on the conversation of work that you hate, but work that you love, and it's predicated on almost like a mission or passion or purpose point. So as far as coming back, it's interesting to me how when you're passionate about or love the work that you do, how quickly the, and again, air quotes here, excitement or desire
to get back in the game comes in like real quick. Like as long as you give yourself the time to do the things, all of a you're like, I'm ready to go back and do the things that a minute ago or a day ago or an hour ago, just depends, might've been stressing me the heck out. There's a great quote Liz from an unknown human.
that goes, sometimes the best way to love what you do is to step away for a moment and come back refreshed. Like, notice in that quote though, a moment. Like there are days when I just walk out into my yard barefoot and look up at the sun for like two minutes. But that helps me from getting burnt out because it's, just need a minute. There's times where
I usually don't take like a long lunch, but there are days I'll purposely take a lunch and go watch something on Netflix for like 45 minutes because I need a break from the thing or the day. yeah, that's kind of my, if I roll that up into a nice little sandwich, George sucked at it, George tries to be good at it. Sometimes he sucks at it and sometimes he doesn't.
Liz Moorehead (19:12.131)
I think that's a very human answer, to be perfectly honest. And I like what you said there about sometimes you need to just take a moment. It reminds me of a piece of writing advice I always give people when they're working on content, and it's one I sometimes have to remind myself of. You're not bad at writing. You probably just need a break. Staring at something harder and longer is not going to make results go faster or make your brain work better.
George B. Thomas (19:30.454)
Mmm
George B. Thomas (19:35.704)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (19:41.969)
And particularly when it comes to writing, for some reason people think you, like, let's just pretend it's a business blog article, right? And for those who listen to this who don't know what I do for a living, I'm a content strategist and content creator. Like, that's what I do. That's my whole business, right? Thank you. But the thing about it is that people have this expectation that you are going to sit down and you are going to write in order, start to finish your piece of content.
George B. Thomas (19:49.719)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (19:57.42)
She's dope by the way, let's just throw that in.
Liz Moorehead (20:11.981)
No, one of my favorite quotes is from Ernest Hemingway. And his quote, ham -fisted man that he was with his words is, the first draft of anything is shit. Hemingway wasn't Hemingway on his first draft. And you sometimes write it in parts. You sometimes will put words on a screen and sometimes when I'm writing, I will write a piece that's good. I will know the next thing I need to write, but I do not know how to get there. And I will just write in all caps, something smart goes here.
George B. Thomas (20:16.236)
Hmm.
George B. Thomas (20:23.533)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (20:40.343)
Sometimes kittens just need to walk away. You just need to walk away and let your brain subconsciously solve the problem in front of you. Like that boggles my mind, even though I know sometimes I am guilty of it. It boggles my mind how much we expect ourselves to just perform and not allow, particularly when it comes to creativity, which by the way needs to be its own episode. When it comes to creativity,
George B. Thomas (20:53.308)
yeah.
George B. Thomas (20:59.416)
Mmm.
George B. Thomas (21:05.794)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (21:09.445)
when it comes to doing things that we love, we assume that because we love it or we have that intersection of we love what we do and we are very good at it, that we are just, you know, snap your fingers and we perform. And we forget a couple of things. One, the rest piece. You know, can't constantly be performing. And two, the subconscious processes that we don't see that come with what we do.
George B. Thomas (21:29.143)
Yes.
Liz Moorehead (21:38.021)
So for example, let's say you're listening to this and you're not a creative, you're not a creator, you don't write, you don't do whatever. You still are a creative. You create strategies from nothing. You solve problems, you find solutions to problems from nothing. The act of creating something from nothing are the visible processes that you see and the invisible processes that you will never see. But that's a story for a different day. Anyway, I would be curious to hear from you though.
George B. Thomas (22:01.867)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (22:05.093)
Going back specifically to burnout, how can we avoid burnout if we're super passionate about what we do or are in situations where we feel like we cannot step away?
George B. Thomas (22:18.516)
Yeah. It's funny because I find myself digging more into the minutiae of your questions the more we do this. Because I love that you positioned it like we feel like we can't step away.
Because I think the key phrase in that just might be feel like Listen, I've been there too feeling like you just can't step away from the work because it's so important and you're so important and the person that you're helping is so important I mean honestly if being honest, I bet we've all been there at some point in time You'd love what you do. You're passionate about it. You're driven by responsibility and that makes it feel like stepping away
Like isn't even an option. you now you start to almost feel like caged or stuck. But here's the kicker. Like most of the time that's more perception than reality. And we have to live in reality. Listen, another great quote is a burnout doesn't have to mean giving up on your passions, but it does mean adjusting how you approach them.
And this idea of reality versus perception and approach, think there's something interesting to dive in and kind of like segment or navigate that.
When I think about this, it's like, how can we reframe that mindset or air quotes again, this feeling and actually give ourselves the freedom, dare I say the grace to just breathe a little bit, to not feel stuck, to not feel caged. And Liz, I've got three key strategies for you and the listeners on this topic this morning. Yeah, there you go. Get ready to take those notes.
Liz Moorehead (24:07.525)
Getting my pen and paper. Or a friend, not for me, I'm fine, I have this mastered. Not me.
George B. Thomas (24:12.44)
Right, of course, not you. It's the person next door that lives. Okay, so, yeah, so there's three things that we're gonna hit upon. Is it truly impossible? Break it down and set boundaries and communicate them. is it truly impossible? I'm at, really? Like, so first things first. We've gotta ask ourself,
Liz Moorehead (24:18.011)
Speak directly into the mic, please.
George B. Thomas (24:40.702)
Is it truly impossible to step away? And really think about it. Like, what would actually happen if you took a break? Would the whole thing come crashing down? Would your world explode? Or would things just maybe move a little slower? Like, most of the time it's the slower versus the explosion or everything crashing down around us. But we fear the worst case scenario.
versus enabling maybe what needs or would be the thing. And here's the thing, we hold ourselves back because we feel like we're the only ones that can handle the load, the workload, okay? Maybe it's perfectionism. Again, probably talking about somebody else, not myself. No, I...
Liz Moorehead (25:36.913)
Totally not us. We're like.
George B. Thomas (25:37.878)
Yeah, maybe I do have a little bit of perfectionism. Maybe though it's you don't trust others to step in. But what if you gave somebody else a shot? Like delegating, even just a little bit, can free up time you didn't know that you had. Delegation for me has been a crazy unlock in my life, allowing me
to get everything or almost everything done and have time to actually live my life. And the first part of the business, I sucked at that, but I keep getting better and better. And so BYD Crew, next time you're battling with this, there's actually some questions that you can start to ask yourself. Like, literally, look in a mirror if you have to, but ask yourself, what would happen if I step away for an hour, a day, or a week?
By the way, you might want to ask yourself these questions before you're in the middle of burnout, because then you can almost kind of rehearse what the answers will be when you get close or into the burnout. so what would happen if I stepped away for an hour a day or week? Would work stop entirely? Would it still continue? Perhaps a bit slower, but still effectively, right? Is there a specific reason I feel like I can't step away? For example, are there...
tight deadlines, client demands, or a lack of trust in your team. So identifying the root cause can help you address these challenges more directly as you move forward in the future. And again, tools that you can use. Can someone else step in? Literally, this could be outsourcing, this could be automation, this could be hiring if you're a solopreneur, it could be training somebody up if you already have a team, but
If delegating certain tasks could help free up some of your time, there's literally like, buy back your time by Dan Martell. that, go read that book. Often there's, or listen to it if you're more of an audible person, but often there's a reluctance to delegate because again of perfectionism or a belief that no one else can handle the work that you do because you're so absolutely special. And you are, I believe you're special. let go of some control.
George B. Thomas (28:03.562)
Anyway, not looking at anybody right now. By letting go of some control and trusting others, I know, I know, I know. But by letting go of some control and trusting others, you can reduce the burden, right? So the second thing is like break it down. All right, let's say stepping away completely isn't in the cards right now. And trust me,
Liz Moorehead (28:08.613)
You know what, that's heartful. I just did a very tough week. I just did a very tough, no, it's fair. It's fair, it's fair, it's fair. I'm fine, I'm fine.
George B. Thomas (28:32.536)
No judgment. I get it. Ladies and gentlemen, been there, done that, got the t -shirt, wore holes through it. Like, I get it. But here's a hack. Break your work into chunks. Like, you don't have to do it all at once. So prioritize the high impact stuff and handle it piece by piece. One of the things that is super dope is time blocking. So time block your day so you're not juggling 17 things at once.
but you're actually doing the things that are prioritized in the time that you allotted for it. I love David Allen's quote, he said, you can do anything. And I'm like, yes, I can. And then he says, but not everything. Like, that's like, we can do anything that we want, but we can't do everything all at once, which is super relevant in today's conversation. When you chunk down your work, it's easier to manage and suddenly,
that mountain of tasks, which all of us as humans, when we see the mountain.
We're like, time to check out. But that mountain of tasks looks like a series of little hills that can actually be climbed and not like kill you in the effort of trying to get over that mountain. The third thing is set boundaries and communicate. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a big one. You have to set those boundaries and make sure people know about them. We actually did an entire podcast episode on boundaries.
And if you want to do a deep dive or dive deep into that conversation, just listen to the episode, setting healthy boundaries that fortify your path, foster growth and create peace. Because boundaries are huge. Here's the deal. Let your colleagues, employees, families, friends, clients know when you're available. More importantly, when you're not. Liz, I've gotten really good at like 5 .15, 5 .30.
George B. Thomas (30:36.694)
saying, boop, done. I'm gonna go live life now because I've been working since XYZ time in the morning. I'm trying to get better with that on at least one day, one day on the weekends too. I'm definitely still trying to make it a focal point on like vacations. When I'm on vacation, it's done, we're over. So, Lou Holtz quotes, it's not the load that breaks you down.
It's the way you carry it. When I think about that quote, I think about are you carrying it alone? Are you carrying too much of it? You know, the mountains, the hills, the thing here.
I don't know who I'm talking to here, but if you're listening to this and this resonates, then please just take it and run with it. It's okay to say I'm offline after 6 p The world's not gonna end. It's okay to say I don't respond to emails, Slack messages, or smoke signals on the weekends. It's okay. The world's not gonna end.
Liz Moorehead (31:37.893)
He
George B. Thomas (31:52.834)
Trust me when I tell you, when you set those boundaries, the people in your lives, they'll adjust to the boundaries that you set. And it helps you create that breathing room that you need to avoid. Also, if I'm being honest with myself and you are being honest with yourselves as the listeners, the hardest person to get to follow your boundaries just might be you, not the other humans around you.
So I want you to take these three strategies because I believe that they can help you reframe that can't step away mindset by remembering that stepping away might be easier than you think because now you have the tools to do it. By setting boundaries, breaking down your work and delegating, you can maintain your passion for the purpose, for the work that you love.
without putting yourself at risk. Liz, what are your thoughts?
Liz Moorehead (32:58.743)
I have so many. I have so many. We're going to talk about science for a little bit. We're going to talk about science and data and research. Because when I thought about this question for myself, I realized if we need to avoid burnout, we first need to be able to identify what it is. And historically, I have quite frankly seen a lot of people say, I'm so burned out. No, your stress are overworked, but a good night's sleep will take care of that.
George B. Thomas (33:05.771)
nice.
George B. Thomas (33:18.224)
yeah.
Liz Moorehead (33:28.271)
Right? And so this is where I want us to have a very structured conversation of you don't know how to avoid something you don't know how to define. Because in the past few years, WHO, the World Health Organization, has actually documented what burnout actually is. And there are three pillars of it. Emotional exhaustion, depersonalization or cynicism, and reduced personal accomplishment. Because often what will happen is,
George B. Thomas (33:43.416)
You
Liz Moorehead (33:57.253)
We'll just be like tired and we'll say we're burned out. It's not that being tired isn't as important. You need to sleep, you need rest, but you don't want to overdiagnose what you have because you begin to tell yourself a story that is fundamentally untrue and you will live as if you are burned out. You need to look at the problem in front of you and understand and ask yourself, are my feelings about the situation and my facts about the situation
George B. Thomas (34:13.56)
Mmm.
Liz Moorehead (34:26.381)
in the same room? Or are your feelings in Europe while the facts are in South America? And you need to squish those things back together, right? So that's why I want to have this conversation really quickly. So when we say emotional exhaustion, that is different from, it's a very long day. I'm very tired for very reasonable reasons. I use my brain a lot. But this is this kind of deep.
George B. Thomas (34:42.84)
You
Liz Moorehead (34:53.253)
bone level sense of fatigue that doesn't go away with a nap or a good night's sleep. It's just like there's some sort of energy vampire you cannot see chronically siphoning off your energy, right? So you're constantly feeling physically and emotionally tired. You have trouble sleeping if you, even if you are tired. Like you are mentally willing your body to go to sleep.
no matter how big or small the task is in front of you, you could be making a to -do list and that's a task, or you could be writing a big paper and each feels like you have to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in order to accomplish it. And then you start getting grouchy and irritable and anxious. Now, this is where we go into the second pillar, right? Depersonalization or cynicism. You start detaching from your work.
George B. Thomas (35:42.489)
Yeah
Liz Moorehead (35:47.631)
and you start detaching from the people around you, right? So you're negative, you're overly critical. I remember when I used to manage teams, I managed teams at Living Social, I managed teams when I was at Impact and other companies. One of the things I always really watched out for on my teams was that moment when somebody was showing up with very negative or overly critical attitudes. Because not only,
Do I have this problem with this person where it's like, gosh, okay, she needs help, he needs help, I need to be there, I need to figure out why I didn't see this coming. They're solving the challenge of the one, but that kind of stuff is toxic in a team. It just starts leaking everywhere. But then there's also the apathy and detachment. You're not just anxious or critical or negative, you're just like, The thing that once brought you joy is now the thing where you're just like, I don't care.
George B. Thomas (36:40.824)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (36:42.405)
and you continue to get irritable and short tempered because you are in a situation that you do not want to be in. And so eventually you're just like, who cares? Why bother? And then there's finally reduced personal accomplishment. So that means you just, this isn't imposter syndrome, right? This isn't like, I know somebody gave me a seat at the table, but do I really have a seat at the table? This is, start feeling chronically incompetent. You are and feel chronically inefficient.
You don't feel good. You're constantly doubting everything that you're doing and you have a complete loss in your abilities to do what it is that you're doing. But the key differentiator here is not only do all three need to be present, it is chronic. This doesn't go away with a good night's sleep. This doesn't go away with, hey, I'm just gonna go stand outside and touch grass. But I like that you brought that up because I have that as part of my avoidance strategy.
Right, because our question here is not what do you do once you've already burned out, once you're already caught on fire? The question is how do we avoid getting there in the first place? Right? So now that we have a good idea of what burnout actually is, and to be clear, once again, I'm not diminishing when you have a really long shitty tough day and you actually need to nap and you need to slam a couple doors and scream into a couple pillows or do what I do, which is my best friend called me the other day and she said, how are you feeling today? I said,
George B. Thomas (37:49.18)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Liz Moorehead (38:06.705)
About $300 worth of feelings at Ulta, how are you? know, like, are benefits to not having kids living by yourself. there are. But then that's also the double edged sword. No one tells me no. So I've had to learn how to do that. But that's why we have a feelings budget in Liz's spreadsheet. We have a feelings budget. I'm allowed to have X number of dollars of feelings per month. They do not roll over. No, I should not be encouraged to use all of them. Right.
George B. Thomas (38:09.592)
my god
George B. Thomas (38:15.776)
Yeah. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (38:20.493)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (38:25.41)
There you go.
George B. Thomas (38:34.796)
feel like there's a good girl math joke here, but I'm just gonna leave it Lee.
Liz Moorehead (38:38.713)
If you pay with cash, it's free. Yeah. Free money. Yeah, I know. I have to trade myself out of that because if my dad heard me using girl bath, would excuse me. Excuse.
George B. Thomas (38:43.064)
Lord.
George B. Thomas (38:48.5)
my daughters did it on purpose to make my head explode one day and I was like, yes, they they they're good at it.
Liz Moorehead (38:52.145)
I do like watching your girls do that to you. It is a sport that I enjoy the most. So let's talk about how we avoid it, shall we? Because I have notes and I have science. So now that we understand actually what burnout is, it is this chronic, like you went from a solid eight to 10 all the time to just completely cratering, right? And it's chronic and it's not going away. That is the thing we do not want to get to. You've brought up a lot of good things already.
But there are a few things I want to talk about and I want to talk about a scientific principle, phenomena, a human quirk, if you will, called the planning fallacy. The reason why I want to talk about this is because often how do we avoid burnout? Well, there's the stuff that we talked about here, right? Talking with people, setting boundaries. But have we architected a life from a working perspective that is even possible?
George B. Thomas (39:21.784)
You
Liz Moorehead (39:51.397)
Because us humans have a very hard time realistically defining what we consider to be possible. Now what I mean by that is this. The planning fallacy essentially puts forward that humans are really, really crappy.
at guessing or planning how long it will take to complete a certain task. So for example, there was this really great study done in 1994 where they asked university students to estimate how long it would take to complete their honors thesis. Most students estimated an average of 33 .9 days to finish. However, in reality, it took 55 .5 days, which is a whopping 64 % longer. But it's not just students, it's everyone. So there's another study by
The Conoman and Lovallo that was done in 1993, that first study I mentioned was by Bueller. Bueller. Bueller. I had to do it. I had to do it. So, this next study, they observed corporate projects also suffered from these same issues. And they looked at everything from construction projects to IT, and we have the same over -optimism.
George B. Thomas (40:46.067)
Good movie. Good movie.
Liz Moorehead (41:04.113)
So for example, the Sydney Opera House was supposed to be completed in four years with a cost of $7 million, and it was completed in 14 years and cost 102 million. And that just slight miscalculation was 1 ,300%. There was another study where 258 large infrastructure projects found that a nine out of every 10 projects took over 20%.
George B. Thomas (41:13.778)
Wow, just a little.
Liz Moorehead (41:32.625)
28 % over projections, both in time and budget. So we do this all the time for a lot of reasons. One, sometimes we're in situations where we want to please, we want to say yes, we want to give the best answer. But when I was applying this to myself, because quite frankly, this was this thing I had to wrestle with over the past week. What is the life that I want? And am I actually living the life that I want? And it made me start thinking about limits.
When we plan our days, our weeks, our months, our ability to complete one specific task, we do that calculation from the perspective of we will work at peak performance the entire time. We also tend to forget that creativity requires you to step away. That is part of the process. That is not not doing work, right?
We operate, like imagine you're driving a car, George. Imagine you're gonna drive a car and you're going to take that car to a grocery store that is down the highway, maybe about, I don't know, 20 miles. We really like this grocery store. So that's why we're going out of our way to get there.
George B. Thomas (42:44.021)
If I'm going that far, I love what they got on the shelves.
Liz Moorehead (42:47.265)
Exactly. That's where up here we will call that a Wegmans down there. They'll probably call it a Publix. Wegmans is... Wegmans is ball...
George B. Thomas (42:52.874)
but I like Wagman, so let's just stick with it. Yeah. It's good. Maybe Trader Joe's. Anyway.
Liz Moorehead (42:59.865)
Yeah, so, yeah, dude, my approach to party planning is let's go to the appetizer aisle and just take my arm and scoop it all into the cart. That's called being a homemaker.
George B. Thomas (43:01.686)
Yeah, anyway.
George B. Thomas (43:07.276)
There we go.
Liz Moorehead (43:11.505)
You could, we plan our days as if once we get in that car, we are pushing that car to its limit the entire time. We are going 140 miles per hour, never hitting a stoplight, never stopping. Which sounds actively stupid, doesn't it? Listen, that's not how cars work. Some streets have speed limits. You're going to hit stop signs, stop lights, there will be traffic, there are turns.
George B. Thomas (43:32.053)
Mmm.
Liz Moorehead (43:39.345)
You can't take a turn going 140 because you're not Dominic Toretto, which is hurtful but true. Right? But that's how we plan our days, weeks, months. Yeah, I can take a meeting every single morning at 7 a I can have days where I start at 6 and have to be on all day until 8 .30. No. I now have a client in Australia and two days a week I'm meeting with those guys at 7 .30, which means my days because we're chatty and...
George B. Thomas (43:51.928)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (44:09.285)
talk alone, days might not end till nine. Which means I've had to learn to take a break, but here's my point. When we think about what we're planning and how we're structuring our days and our weeks and our months, are we suffering from our own planning fallacy? Are we operating as if we will be able to operate at peak performance? Are we planning from our limits instead of what is realistic?
George B. Thomas (44:12.588)
Yeah. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (44:27.96)
Mmm.
Liz Moorehead (44:38.929)
Because that's how something you love grows into something you hate. Because you never gave yourself a chance to be successful to begin with. It reminds me of when I first started working at Impact as the editor -in -chief, one of the things that they had me do, and I wasn't the editor -in -chief yet, I was just like this ad hoc content strategist who was brought in because I was one of the first real content specialists there. And so they let people know, hey, if you have a content problem, just go to Liz. She's experienced with this stuff. And this one guy came up to me.
George B. Thomas (44:47.512)
Right.
Liz Moorehead (45:07.885)
And he said, hi, I have this blog article and I know it should only be like a thousand words, but like it is so long and I can't get out of outlining. And I took a look at it and within five seconds, I was like, sweet Pete, need to, you need to pick an audience. You're writing to everyone. This isn't a blog article. This is a research paper. Like pick one. Anyway. holy crap. You're right. Incredibly smart guy. Absolutely nothing wrong. Right. But incredibly smart people.
will not see the forest for the trees, right? Like have you taken a step back and had your own Liz moment and go, God, I'm not set, the only thing I'm setting myself up for is burnout.
George B. Thomas (45:49.795)
Hmm
Liz Moorehead (45:51.727)
And so that's where I think we have a really critical conversation that we need to have. Burnout can appear sometimes out of nowhere, and it can be circumstantial. It can be an intersection, a perfect storm of events, of things. But are you actually setting the conditions where the only thing possible eventually is burnout?
George B. Thomas (46:11.384)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (46:15.781)
And so how do you fix that? I love all of the stuff you said. The only other thing I would say too, just a little bit more explicitly is ask for help. And if you feel like you can't ask for help, like genuinely can't ask for help, like it will be crapped on, you need to kind of take a hard look about where you are. Like, I'm just going to be honest. If you don't feel like you're in a situation where you can genuinely ask for help, like I could ask you for help. I know I could do that. I would like.
I had to learn that the hard way, but you know, we can ask each other for help and we know that. If you feel like you can't, you need to take a long hard look at why you feel like you can't. Is it an actual feeling that is also a fact?
George B. Thomas (46:55.895)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (47:00.086)
or the humans you're around. Anyway, yeah, there's a lot there.
Liz Moorehead (47:00.177)
Because sometimes they are. Yeah, yeah, it's cultural. So those are my thoughts on that. Because I like facts and I like science. I don't like guessing. OK, but of course there are those moments, There are those moments where literally in that moment you cannot step away. What does that look like? What happens there? Hate those.
George B. Thomas (47:11.062)
Right. Yeah.
George B. Thomas (47:22.508)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, those are fun.
And again, I go to this is less of the feeling, even though it feels like, but it's less of the feeling where it's like, it's truly impossible. Like I have this high stakes, tight deadline, essential responsibilities. Cool. So you can't step away. The thing where my brain goes for this list is I don't want people to feel stuck.
because it's only a moment in time. Like you're gonna get past it. And some things that have helped me, and again, Liz, I tried to be a little succinct. I don't know if I did a good job or not on this episode, three things that I think I would tell myself and other humans is that micro breaks are your friend.
Liz Moorehead (48:15.632)
It's okay.
George B. Thomas (48:30.794)
If you're like stuck in it and you can't walk away. Micro breaks not I'll get into that. Prioritizing ruthlessly. Ruthlessly. And then also just if you have the ability and you started to lean into this, communicate your workload. Like all hands on deck could mean all hands, not just your hands, because sometimes that's why we feel like we're at where we're at. So.
When I talk about micro breaks, I'm not talking about taking like an hour long lunch or booking a vacation, although at that point, probably you would feel like that is nice. I'm literally talking about micro breaks, short, intentional moments where you just hit pause. It might be for a quick five minute walk to clear your head, stretch, shake it off, whatever, a deep breathing exercise right at your desk for five minutes.
Trust me when I tell you the impact that these will have on your mind, your body, your brain to be able to like rejuvenate or lightly refuel. It's almost like if I give it an analogy, it's like you have rechargeable batteries and you put it back in the charger for, you know, five minutes. It has more than had before and it may be just enough to keep going. And so these little resets can give your mind, your body the break that you need.
without needing to feel like you have to leave work entirely. Anne Lamont said this, and I giggled when I read this quote because I thought about every IT guy or gal out there. Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes. Including you.
Liz Moorehead (50:23.857)
That's literally a joke. Have you tried turning it off and back on again?
George B. Thomas (50:26.166)
Yeah, exactly. But it's a quote and I'm like, okay, just unplug for just a few minutes. It's all about those small but powerful moments to recharge that you can keep pushing forward without frying your brain. This next one, by the way, is huge. If you really can't step away, meaning it's less of a feeling, more of a fact, you have to prioritize ruthlessly. In other words, you can't step away. You've got to get laser focused on what really matters.
Not everything on your to -do list is a priority. Even if it feels like it is, it isn't. So you have to identify the high impact tasks that absolutely need your attention right now. Like the next best thing. The stuff that's truly going to, as the cool kids say, move the needle. I hate that saying, but it doesn't matter. If it's going to move the needle, then prioritize that to be the thing that you're actually doing. Everything else?
Get your notepad ready. Either delegate it, defer it, or drop it. Please use this matrix to make your life better moving forward. It is simply delegate it, defer it, or drop it, if it is not in the priority list. You don't need to be doing everything right now. Focus on what's critical and let the rest go, at least for the moment. I will be completely honest here.
This is how I make it through most of my days. Because I feel like I was being personally attacked when Liz was talking about calendars and hours and like I have to prioritize what's the next thing that I have to do and then get a couple minutes and then what's the next thing that I have to do. But again, it's in an effort to not get too burnt out in an effort to manage where I'm at and what we're doing.
See, it's not about doing more. It's about doing what matters most. And we have to definitely talk about just the ability to communicate because this is one that sometimes we as humans overlook. Especially when we're overwhelmed. Because we start to, you even started to talk about it. Like we start to like sink in towards and like cut off the rest of the world. But if you're carrying a heavy workload,
George B. Thomas (52:52.384)
and stepping away isn't an option, you've got to be upfront with the people around you. Whether it's your boss, your clients, your colleagues, your friends, your family, like let them know that you are at full capacity. This is not about complaining, by the way, because there's a whole thing about like, well, I'm optimistic and cheerful and I don't want to complain. No, no, no, no. You're communicating at this point. You're not complaining. It's about setting expectations.
When people around you know that you're maxed out, they're more likely to offer help, push back on deadlines, or at least understand if you can't take on more. Because if they don't know, they might keep feeding the machine. Guess what? At least communicating. That reduces some of the pressure that you're putting on yourself. Sometimes just letting others know what you're dealing with can make a world of difference.
Like take those micro breaks, ruthlessly prioritize what's most important and communicate your workload with those around you. Trust me, even in the busiest times, just those three things, keeping them in mind and using them as like a set of tools to manage.
The small changes can help you keep things balanced and avoid burnout. And I want you to remember that just because you're locked into the work, it doesn't mean that you can't manage that work that you're locked into in a smart way.
Liz Moorehead (54:31.311)
love what you brought up there, particularly how when we feel like we can't step away, it's usually not, even though if it feels like I can't step away, I have too much going on, usually there's actually only one or two things in front of you that you actually cannot step away from. And getting really clear on, okay, when I say I can't step away, what specifically do I mean? What specifically am I talking about? Or who am I specifically talking about?
because that brings you that clarity to triage. Because if you cannot step away, but you in front of you have everything in front of you, right? And you can't possibly do everything, then guess what? Something's gotta go. Something's gotta move. And people are often a lot more understanding than what you think. And the reality is that when you show up to somebody, you don't have to be like, I am on the brink of complete self -destruction. This must move or I will die. No, just say,
George B. Thomas (55:14.455)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (55:30.009)
I'm taking a look at in order to complete this well into the quality that I like, could we move this deadline from Wednesday to Thursday? Boop. You know, something simple. Yeah. And people will say, fine, because you know what? All of us suffer from planning fallacy. All of us have said, hey, this is gonna take a day. Just kidding. It's gonna take three. Like it happens, right? Or, hey, I thought I was gonna be able to handle this on my own. Can you tag in?
George B. Thomas (55:39.304)
That was difficult.
Liz Moorehead (55:58.095)
Need a little extra lift if you can't, do you know who someone who can? Or one of my favorite things to do is to delegate parts of the process, not the whole thing. Ooh, can someone just take a look at this? Not just me waiting and then editing it myself, getting a second, third pair of eyes. There are a lot of things that you can do. What you have to get clear on when you say you can't step away, what do you actually mean? What are you actually not able to step away from? And then plan your attack accordingly.
What are the consequences of not stepping away, George? Not that we've ever experienced this.
George B. Thomas (56:32.177)
Finally!
Finally, we get to the easy question. I have a master class in answering this. Like, what are the consequences? Decline in mental health. mean, increased stress and anxiety, risk of depression, right? Physical health issues. You're gonna have a weakened immune system. You're gonna be fatigued. It's gonna lead to illness. It could be long -term health problems. We've talked about on this.
Liz Moorehead (56:40.714)
Ha ha ha ha!
George B. Thomas (57:03.01)
Podcasts before that sometimes I wonder if my high blood pressure, my rheumatoid arthritis, any type of heart disease or chronic pain might be related to the fact that stressed out, burnt out, like over time, over time, hustle, hustle, hustle, work your face off. Strained relationships, right? Personal relationships will suffer, family, friends, significant other workplace relationships are gonna be deteriorated and suck. Decreased creativity and problem solving ability, like loss of innovation and new ideas, diminished focus and concentration.
Career stagnation. While you're gonna plateau at your career, you're gonna hate what you do instead of love what you do, you're gonna have a limited ability to pursue new opportunities because you're burnt the frick out. Loss of passion. This might be the worst one ever. Like losing enthusiasm for the work, feeling dissatisfied or disconnected from your career. But Liz, Liz, this podcast is about burnout. And that's actually one of the side effects or consequences of not stepping away.
That's why we're having this conversation today. And you started to lean into like the pillars and burnout. What does it truly mean? And what's funny is like, yes, mental and physical exhaustion are the most obvious signs, right? You talked about this. It might look a little bit like I'll rest after this project or I'll slow down once things calm down. But here's the reality.
Liz Moorehead (58:28.343)
It never calms down, there's always a new project. What are you talking about?
George B. Thomas (58:30.656)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, here's the reality that things never calm down. So without brakes, your body and your mind eventually hit a wall. It's like trying to drive a car with no gas. What happens? Well, nothing. You go nowhere. And you as a human end up feeling like with constant fatigue. So.
George B. Thomas (58:56.894)
It can get so bad. You can be so in a place that getting out of bed feels like a chore. That you even get to the point where you have insomnia. Like you're so burnt out, you're so wired from stress that even when you have time to sleep, that break for your brain, your brain won't shut off.
and you're lying there wide awake thinking about all the things that you still need to do.
George B. Thomas (59:31.864)
It's not just a feeling or I feel tired. It's fricking total exhaustion. Like, and mentally, emotionally, physically, you're drained. Like, it's that feeling where you just can't recharge no matter what you try. Like, you're in bad shape, bad form. Like, you talked about cynicism and detachment. These are not places that when you're on a journey of beyond your default that you're trying to get to. The passion that you once had? Gone.
Like the relationships that you want to be positive, negative. You start thinking things, it might look a little bit like this. Why am I even doing this? What's the point? And that's tough because you used to love what you do. You used to love your job and now it just feels like work.
grind with no end in sight. this is why I'm so adamant about I play tricks with my mind about I'm going to play, I'm not going to work. Because when you play you actually can take time and relax and not feel guilty because you're not on the grind of what is work.
What's worse though, is this detachment, that cynicism that you were talking about earlier. It doesn't just affect your job, it spills into everything. Your life, your family, your friends. You start to feel disconnected. It's hard to find meaning in what you do. Even tasks that used to excite the crap out of you feel like burdens. It's like you're on autopilot just trying to get through the day.
George B. Thomas (01:01:19.714)
Burnout just doesn't make you feel bad, it also makes you less productive. That's where this is the holy crap. Like, this, you know, we've all used that like analogy or metaphor or whatever it is of like, the snowball effect. Like once it gets started, it just rolls down. Listen, burnout is the snowball effect to you being less productive. You're working harder, putting in longer hours, and somehow you're getting less done. But that's what happens when
you're in this constant survival mode. The quality of your work drops, you start making mistakes, you miss details, people start to get mad at you. You're just moving through tasks slowly that what used to take you an hour now takes you three or days. Like it's to me, it's super ironic that by not stepping away,
you end up losing the very thing that you're trying to hold onto, Liz, productivity. Instead of thriving, you're just barely getting by and, trust me, I should say been there, done that, have the t -shirt, wore holes through it, but that's not the way to live or work.
If you've ever dealt with burnout or you're dealing with burnout right now, I want you to know that it is more than just feeling tired. It is full body, full mind, exhaustion. It is the oil light coming on your car. It is the steam coming out of your radiator. It is the flat tires to the journey that you're trying to make.
In other words, it's important that you focus on this, not end up there, and find these ways to manage your way through life without reaching these blow up burnout moments.
Liz Moorehead (01:03:24.571)
love the picture you painted there because the reality is that when we feel like we can't step away, when we allow ourselves to continue down this path because we've told ourselves some sort of story about like, have to be here, we have to do this, right? You basically manifest the precise worst case scenario you are trying to avoid. Your work product and output will suffer.
the quality of your work will suffer. The relationships you are desperately trying to protect will suffer. You will let people down, right? Like that, I hate saying it from this particular level of tone, particularly if people right now are listening and they are burned out, but this is the reality. This is the cycle we get stuck in. We tell ourselves a story that if we keep going, if we just get to the other side, we will avoid
George B. Thomas (01:04:16.76)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:04:22.871)
all of that and that's simply not the case. You are allowing your feelings to cloud your judgment. You are allowing your fear to get in the way of smart decision making. You are allowing your fear to tell you a wildly different story about what is actually true about your relationships, your work, your ability to actually step away. More is possible likely than what you are telling yourself right now.
And that's where we get into like really tricky stuff. Everything, you become the very energy vampire that you think is attached to you. Because if you start operating without energy, you are gonna go try to find it from other people. That's what's gonna happen. Like this is something where like the consequences of this is that you are working so hard to build something you love to lead a life of purpose.
George B. Thomas (01:04:53.88)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:05:18.447)
to help other people, but you can't help other people keep the lights on if you can't keep your own lights on. Like that, it just does not work.
George B. Thomas (01:05:30.263)
Facts.
Liz Moorehead (01:05:31.279)
Yeah, and for me as a creative, like one of my favorite things that I ever read somewhere by someone smart who is not me and I cannot remember who you are, I love you so much.
George B. Thomas (01:05:34.84)
You
Liz Moorehead (01:05:44.635)
When I start running into chronic block around my ability to write, I ask myself, it because I'm spending too much time working and not enough time living? Because if you don't live, you have nothing to create from. Your creative well, your creative inspiration well runs dry. So I think about, like, have I just become an output machine? Where are my new inputs? And sometimes it's as simple as go touch grass, go read a book.
Like go live life worth talking about. And it's not necessarily that, for example, recently I went just for fun. I finally took a trip just for fun, George. You'd be so proud, because normally every time I take a trip it's because I'm house sitting or moving. I went to New York to see one of my friends. Just went to New York. We had a great weekend. I did a whole Pilate. I'm not sure I will ever do it again.
George B. Thomas (01:06:27.467)
All right.
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:06:39.345)
It was terrifying and I worked muscle groups that I didn't know exist and this is from a girl who works out five days a week and does strength training. like, huh, right? It's not that I'm suddenly gonna come back and write novels and essays about New York and the asphalt and the dreams and no, I met weird people that made me think of things and gave me new ideas and I got new sources of inspiration. And this is where you have to remember that the
problem of burnout is not as impossible to solve as you're making it out to be, but also the way to avoid burnout is a lot more fun than you probably think it is. Because usually it just means you need to remind yourself that you're a human who needs to go human. You need to spend time with your friends and have fun. You need to spend time with your family and have fun. You need to take a nap, and napping is awesome. You need to go experience new things.
and put more new experiences into your body and into your mind. You need to go see the world, even if quote unquote the world is just your backyard or your neighborhood or having a new conversation with somebody you haven't met before. And that's fun, but the consequences, they suck. You just hate everything. You'll burn it all down. Cause that's the thing. If you do not consciously address it subconsciously, you will sabotage it because you do not want to be doing what you're doing anymore.
you will burn your own kingdom to the ground and then tell yourself a story one day of I just couldn't do it, I'm not good enough. Not true. That's not where we wanna be.
George B. Thomas (01:08:13.994)
No, not at all.
Liz Moorehead (01:08:14.873)
No. So how can someone reduce or rebalance their workload if they suspect burnout is imminent without feeling like they're stepping back from their passion? I know we've touched on this already, but since we have a special awesome group of people, I want to come at it from two directions, There are those listening who work for themselves, and then there are those who work for others. So what does that look like?
George B. Thomas (01:08:38.315)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I want to start with... Because, by the way, I love that you segmented this out because it's, as you'll see, it's like kind of completely different. The things that we kind of should be paying attention to or could be thinking about. And I want to start this rebalancing conversation that you're kicking off with...
Liz Moorehead (01:08:49.51)
Yeah.
George B. Thomas (01:09:01.29)
if you work for someone else. Because I know a lot of people that do and also I have more experience working for others than working for myself. here's the thing.
Sometimes when you're an employee, you feel like you don't have any control. And I want you to realize you actually have more control than you think. The key is to strategically communicate and adjust without feeling like you're stepping away from what you love. You have to have, and I mentioned this earlier, open conversations with your manager, your boss, your owner, whatever world you live in, the person that's in charge.
You've got to communicate what's going on. And I know, because I've been there, that you can feel, it can feel, intimidating. Especially when you're passionate about your work and you don't want to seem like you're not keeping up. But burnout doesn't help anyone, including your boss. Like, it's not helping you, it's not helping your boss. So set up a meeting and instead of framing it as, can't handle this, approach it
with like a solution -based mindset. Maybe like I've noticed my workload is growing and I wanna make sure I'm delivering the highest quality work. Can we look at what's on my plate and see if we can prioritize or adjust some deadlines? Listen, you might hear me say that and be like, yeah, right. If I was your boss, this type of conversation would excite the crap out of me because it shows me a level of self -awareness
to yourself, your abilities and that timing thing, that planning thing that Liz is talking about. The other thing is if somebody came to me and they're like, negotiate deadlines or being able to even delegate, like there's been conversations inside our organization of when do I get an assistant for certain people so that they can get more out of themselves.
George B. Thomas (01:11:12.17)
Again, you don't have to do, and we talked about this earlier, the everything at once thing. And so can the deadlines be moved? Can the priorities be made? A lot of times your boss might not even realize how much is on your plate until you bring it up. So be clear about what's most important and suggest realistic timelines for the rest. High value tasks. Employees, high value tasks. High value tasks. Don't let other stuff creep in.
Because if other things creep in, that's when burnout creeps in. You've got to stay focused on the high priority tasks and not spreading yourself too thin.
George B. Thomas (01:11:57.848)
I hope that you work in an organization where you can actually ask to let go of some of the tasks that don't align with your core strengths or suggest that someone else on the team can take them over. I hope, I pray that you live in an organization where that's an okay thing to do because that would be something I would suggest. And again, this almost ties into like the setting boundaries things that we talked about earlier. You can set
boundaries with your boss, just like your boss can set boundaries with you. After our working late night emails, weekends, like create healthy boundaries to protect their time and your time. Again, for this one, it's about finding balance without feeling like you're stepping away from the work or stepping away from the relationship. Now, if you work for yourself, you're your own boss.
Newsflash. It can feel even harder to step back or step away. I found it quite easier as an employee in my younger years. I found it harder as an employee who had embraced a owner's mentality and I find it extremely difficult now as an owner of an organization because it's this thing of like it's all on you. But
Still, there are ways to rebalance this feeling of this. So, reevaluate and refocus business owners. As an entrepreneur or a freelancer, you're probably juggling a ton of responsibilities. So take a moment to step back and reevaluate what's truly driving your business forward. I've had to do this very recently with all the possibilities, all the opportunities.
and ask myself, are there things that I love that I should be killing and not doing anymore? Meaning, are you spending time, am I spending time on tasks that don't really move the needle? Is there a way that I can trim the fat by cutting out like certain things or can I trim the fat by then outsourcing low impact activities or can I focus on the work that matters most
George B. Thomas (01:14:25.108)
most and aligns with my passion. What am I passionate about? What do I feel like my purpose is on this planet? Again, I'm not stepping away. You're not stepping away. I and you are focusing in. There's a big difference from focusing in versus stepping away. This one for me is huge. Automate, automate and outsource.
A lot of small business owners think that they need to handle every detail, but there are so many tools out there now. The amount of stuff that we can do with automation and I'll even throw in AI, assistants, bots, co -pilots, like repetitive tasks. You should be reimagining and repurposing your processes when it comes to email scheduling, invoicing out like.
What can you outsource from like administrative work? How can automation or AI co -pilots helping content creation or social media management? Like the things that are the fringe items that make you feel like you're drowning, how can you rethink process around those? Again, this way you're not stepping back from your passion, you're just freeing yourself up to focus on what truly drives you. And here's the biggest one for me.
I am preaching to the choir when I talk about this one. We all need to, and Liz you alluded to this by the way with data and all sorts of stuff, but we need to set realistic expectations.
George B. Thomas (01:16:03.946)
It's so easy to... I feel like I'm about to preach to myself. It's so easy to overcommit when you're your own boss. Why did I speak five times at inbound? Because I could. Because I was bad at saying no. Because I... Not, not, not, not... Go ahead, go ahead.
Liz Moorehead (01:16:05.105)
Are you talking to yourself, George, right now?
Liz Moorehead (01:16:20.945)
Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on. I wanna chime in here because this is where particularly when you get very good at saying no to things, it enables you to say yes to stuff like that. So you might be sitting here saying, for a week I I spoke five times, but would you really take that back?
George B. Thomas (01:16:36.994)
Yes.
Liz Moorehead (01:16:43.449)
And aren't you glad you were able to say yes to those things because you had said no to a lot of stuff in the two weeks leading up to that. We canceled like crazy.
George B. Thomas (01:16:51.788)
Yes, yes, I, no, I do not want to not speak five times. Yes, we had to say to no to a lot of things. But even that is a masterclass for some because for me to say no historically has been just incredibly difficult. What I'm really, what I'm, that's well played. What I'm really trying to get at is,
Liz Moorehead (01:16:56.827)
Thank you.
Liz Moorehead (01:17:11.705)
A no -go, if you will.
George B. Thomas (01:17:20.514)
Focus on creating a realistic workload and understand that it's okay for you as a human to pace yourself. Like, if burnout is looming, then look at your current commitments and don't be afraid to say no to some that might be already in progress and definitely no to new projects on the horizon.
Until you feel like you're back on solid ground, refueled, ready to reengage, you can still grow your business without burning out. I'm teaching myself that every day. Trust me, you'll have more energy and creativity when you realize you can grow your business without burning out.
George B. Thomas (01:18:19.874)
Build time for rest. I said something when I was speaking at Inbound, said, schedule AI playtime, because we were talking about AI. How about we just switch that a little bit? Schedule playtime, schedule rest time. Figure out when in your week you're gonna hit the off switch.
If you block it out, it becomes important. The breaks, the downtime. Activities that aren't related to your business, by the way, because you could be like me and be like, but I love it so much, downtime is creating 197 draft blog articles on a Saturday. No, it's not, really? Like.
Again, you have to realize by giving those down times, by scheduling that playtime, by having the breaks, you're not stepping away from your passion. You're you're making sure that you have the energy and clarity to sustain it long term. Because trust me, all of us listening to this podcast should be focused on long term success, long term significance.
Liz Moorehead (01:19:39.451)
Can I give you an example of my AI play time?
George B. Thomas (01:19:41.869)
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (01:19:43.697)
So I do the same thing, where I have Greg Bott, as you know, which is the chat GPT I built. He is a sassy British butler who sometimes quotes movies to me like Godfather and Fast and Furious. I had him one time do a theoretical fight between one duck -sized Ethan Hawke and 15 duck -sized Ethan Hawkes.
George B. Thomas (01:19:53.602)
Gotta love that.
George B. Thomas (01:20:05.197)
Wow.
Liz Moorehead (01:20:06.385)
And I was like, but here's what was fun. It first just did that. And I said, okay, well, what if the ducks had weaponized the bread all the humans had fed them? It's like, well, Shabata grenades get very difficult. I'm like, this is amazing. All right. What happens if Ethan Hawke, all the baby Ethan Hawke show up as his worst version of himself in every 90s movie where he just waxed poetic and philosophically about the girl he never chased after. And so he let his whole life explode, right?
and weaponized flannel. Like that's fun. I'll share it with you, it's really great.
George B. Thomas (01:20:38.904)
Yes. I'm just trying to get past the ciabatta bread grenades, but...
Liz Moorehead (01:20:49.883)
Hey, that's what Greg Bott came up with. I didn't ask for that. I said weaponized bread and it gave me flatbread boomerangs, ciabatta grenades, and then there was something about like French bread, think like trebuchets or something like that. yeah, was really, wow, okay. It really is.
George B. Thomas (01:20:58.161)
George B. Thomas (01:21:04.24)
wow, it's dangerous out there. Liz, what's your one takeaway, your one thing from this episode on burnout?
Liz Moorehead (01:21:21.617)
It is better than you think it is.
It is the parts that you think are the hardest are probably going to be the easiest parts of addressing this. On the flip side of that, I've got to be honest, particularly if you are an army of one, if you work for yourself, you may end up in a situation where you have to learn this the hard way.
That's just the reality. But if I'm looking back, you know, I've been now on my own for a little over two years. When I look back on this journey and the moments where I've learned this very much the hard way, I'm really grateful for those because the hard way becomes worth it if you allow yourself to see the lessons that you needed to learn.
George B. Thomas (01:22:14.456)
You
Liz Moorehead (01:22:14.661)
And the reason why I was able to show up and have a conversation today about limits and structures of your days, weeks and months is because that was a lesson I had to learn. That was a lesson I had to learn for myself and I learned it.
Liz Moorehead (01:22:32.047)
Allow these moments to be instructive, but they do not have to be destructive. You don't have to destroy yourself in order to get to the other side, but you have to be honest with yourself about what am I telling myself is hard when it's easy and what am I saying is easy that's actually hard. You have to get clear on what is actually happening in front of you. But I guarantee you going back to my one thing.
a lot more is possible than you think it is. May get scrappy, may get bloody, but it's easier than you think it is. More is possible than you think it is.
George, take us home. What about you? What's your one thing?
George B. Thomas (01:23:17.343)
Yeah, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer. But my one thing from this episode is it's closer than you think it is.
Liz Moorehead (01:23:21.199)
boy.
Liz Moorehead (01:23:27.345)
Ooooo
George B. Thomas (01:23:29.432)
Meaning you could feel like you're A -OK right now and by 5 p this evening you're like, and I'm burnt out. Like it is a ninja that creeps up on you. It is like silence in the middle of the day. And so what I would say is start to plan before you arrive at the destination that you're not trying to get to.
Think about all the things that we've talked about. Think about the notes that you've taken. Think about the places that your brain went, even if we didn't say them, but it unlocked something. And start to put together a rhythm, a rhyme, a set of hacks, tips, tricks, whatever it is for you, because this is definitely a personal journey, of how do you focus more now on managing it so you never get there.
instead of trying to dig yourself out of it. Because managing to not get there is a lot easier than migrating out of the deep pit of burnout.
George B. Thomas (01:24:42.52)
Trust me, staying out of the pit is definitely where you want to be when you're on this journey of a life beyond your default.